my opinion about the iraq war...

[aszid]

well, since everybody seems to be bringing this up when it has NOTHING to do with the topic, i thought i'd make a thread were it is on topic.

this is my theory about why, and how the recent war with iraq happened. For the last few years sadam has been... "egging on" the US, by that i mean, doing everything short of actually starting the war, in order to get us to start the war. starting even before sadam celebrated the terrorist attack on 9/11.

i believe that sadam thought if he could make the US into the aggressor nation then the rest of the world would come to Iraq's aid. however the rest of the world is a bit smarter than that. i'm not saying that the US military could beat the rest of the world, i'm saying that if the US actually lost a war, the world economy would crumble. hell, i think that if MS went out of business it would cause the world economy to go into depression.

no, i do not think that the US should have attacked iraq. but i do think that another war with iraq was inevitable. iraq had previously lost a war against primarily the US, and moreso, SADAM lost a war against the US. and i don't believe that he was the type to "let it go" from all accounts that i've read he's quite a brutal, unforgiving, bastard. (here's a link i dug up, it took about 30 seconds to find: http://www.kurdi.dk/General/artikler/halabja&anfall.pdf )

anyhow... let the anti-american flames begin... i guess..

[Num3]

Ehehehe

Here's my two euro cents....


1. Why has everyone forgot about Bin Laden and 11/9

2. Why has everyone forgot about Mass Destruction Weapon

3. Where in the World is Saddam (nice title for a game)


Replies:

War in Iraq served the purpose of deviating attention from the fact Bin Laden will never be found.

The fact Saddam is now the most wanted person serves the purpose of deviating attention from the fact no mass desctruction weapons will never be found.


That's politic for you

[Kale]

My government's stance has changed from:
1). We will find evidence of weapons of mass destruction.
to:
2). We will find evidence of weapons of mass destruction programs.

A sly move! but away from politics though i do agree with the war because at the very least a brutal murderous dictating bastard has been remove from a dangerous position of power. Whenever (we) Britain goes to war nowadays, it is always to protect our interests and to speak frankly we wanted a more stable government in Iraq to keep the oil flowing. Britain created the country Iraq many years ago from the different Arab provinces to govern the lot and protect our grasp on the oil but things went tits up because the provinces don't get on with each other. We will protect the oil flow whatever. I don't mean to sound aggressive but this is the way of the world, i guess America's reason wasn't too dis'similar.

[Karbon]

If you have a problem with some harsh language you best not read this - I tend to get emotional when talking politics.

I don't agree with the Bush administration on foreign policy and I think they were very misleading about why they wanted to go into Iraq.. Lets face it, we wanted to go into Iraq to further prove a point that we WILL put the smack-down on anyone that tries to f*ck with us. Everyone here is still shocked and quite pissed off about 9/11 and even more shocked and pissed off that we haven't found (killed) Osama and all his boys yet. The Bush administration decided to take out Sadaam in part to take our minds off Osama and in part to be proactive instead of reactive. Sadaam *would* have done something else eventually.. Maybe not to the US directly, but to someone... Crazy megalomaniacs like him don't just stop. While it was misleading I don't think it was wrong. If I had it my way I would have landed the number of troops we sent to Iraq in Afganistan and cleaned that place up first, then turned our forces on Sadaam.

If the US and it's small number of allies are going to be the police force of the planet (which isn't that bad of an idea if you think about it) then we need to be systematic. We need to *really* clean up. Can we? Should we? I don't really know. Seems like a good idea to me but I was born and raised in western culture and I'm sure my values of good and justice are different from those that are born and raised in a religion dominated, under-educated, third-world country (Lots of the middle east, Africa, etc).
Now that we destroyed Iraq's governmental infrastructure I hope we *help* the Iraqis to do what's best for *them*...

As far as France and Germany goes I wish to give credit where credit is due. Both France and Germany have troops in Afganistan fighting and dying along side Americans.. France has been an ally since the American revolution several hundred years ago. Without the French America wouldn't exist (and we did pay them back in WW1/2!).. I see no reason. to hate the French or Germans because they strongly disagree with this administration's policies and strongly oppose invading other countries. I don't think anyone can really blame them for that.

In closing... Make no mistake about America being out for revenge, we're not. We're after a reckoning. That is scares the hell out of me as there is nothing worse than a nation afraid for it's life. I am afraid fear and rage could take over and consume this country - god (allah, buddah, etc) help whomever gets in our way because it's going to get worse before it gets better. In the end I hope the world becomes a safer place but that is a *very* long road. If it ever happens at all the one thing that is for certain is that none of us alive today will live to see it.

Can't we all just get along?

Nicht alle können wir gerade entlang erhalten?

Ne pouvons-nous pas tous juste obtenir le long?

(I'm sure that lost quite a bit of meaning in the google translation!!!)

Oops.. Forgot to list 3 things I can't live without...

French Wine
German Beer
Kentucky Bourbon!

[fsw]

Nicht alle können wir gerade entlang erhalten?

Can't we all just get along?

My german translation:

Koennten wir alle nicht miteinander auskommen?


Mahatma Gandhi said once (if I'm not mislead, he was talking to Winston Churchill):
If we would live as followers of Jesus Christ, than not only the problems between our countries would disappear, but all problems of the entire world.

NOTE: He was not a christian!

[Karbon]

If we would live as followers of Jesus Christ, than not only the problems between our countries would disappear, but all problems of the entire world.

A true statement even if you replace Jesus Christ with Muhammad or any other religious icon. Most religions, including Islam and Christianity are very peaceful - which makes it even worse when fanatics take control and use those religions as an excuse to do evil...

[Blade]

starting even before sadam celebrated the terrorist attack on 9/11.

Saddam has nothing to do with 9/11... Have you forgot Bin Laden?
Please note that Bin Laden had "religious" motivations, while Saddam was just a dictator.

... i'm saying that if the US actually lost a war, the world economy would crumble.

US just started the war without knowing how to stop it. They just said "let's bomb" because they had to do something before americans get worried about the fact that Bin Laden was missing.
(before this, had to ask UK to "create" the evidence of weapons of mass destruction)
So, despite what W has said, the war isn't finished, so can't say "they won".

[aszid]

well, there is no proof that sadam had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks, and no i don't think he had anything to do with it. but that doesn't change the fact that he celebrated it happening, and applauded the actions of the terrorists.

And, the war IS over, and winners are determined by who was victorious in battle. regardless of what you say even if there is resistance in iraq, it doesn't make the slightest of difference. Iraq's government has crumbled, and thus the enemy is no more, the war WAS NOT against the people of iraq, but the regime of sadam. i don't know what you think determines a war's end, but i don't see how it could be all that much clearer.

[fsw]

If we would live as followers of Jesus Christ, than not only the problems between our countries would disappear, but all problems of the entire world.

A true statement even if you replace Jesus Christ with Muhammad or any other religious icon. Most religions, including Islam and Christianity are very peaceful - which makes it even worse when fanatics take control and use those religions as an excuse to do evil...

Sorry, but Mahatma Gandhi said Jesus Christ by purpose:
you can't replace Jesus Christ with Muhammad.

Even if you believe that Jesus Christ was ONLY a prophet like Muhammad - there is a big difference:

Muhammad allowed to kill people for a 'good' reason (Jihaad).

Jesus Christ did not! He said: love your enemies...

[Blade]

i don't know what you think determines a war's end, but i don't see how it could be all that much clearer.

You are right, I don't know how to determine that a war has ended.
(well, I don't know why a war has to begin, too)

The government in Irak has crumbled:
- Iraki had very bad moments while bombing
- Iraki have still very bad moments despite the war has ended
- American soldiers are still dieing
- Aparently the attacks to US soldiers are getting more "solid"
- The rest of the world still fear another big terroristic attack.
- Bush is asking help to Europe

Oh, I remember Bush saying that the aim of the war was to free iraki...
Silly, Europe know how it fells when airplanes are bombing above your head...


*** Sorry for my english, can't use better words, hope to not be misunderstood ***

[aszid]

well, the US troops that are still in iraq are trying to rebuild much of the infrastructure that was destroyed. some good examples would be electricity, running water, and communication lines... and the groups that are attacking, are only making it worse for the majority of their people. it doesn't really take all that much propaganda to turn relatively uneducated people against something. I very much doubt that most iraqi's have any idea what the US is REALLY like. i've actually seen some of the propaganda commercials from there... and they're REALLY bad. one of them was a music video... for a song titled "our father sadam"

I will admit that for the people of iraq, sadam did some great things. their economy has never been as strong as it was with sadam in charge. but at what cost did it come? in the end it was sadam that caused this war to happen. yes, we were the aggressors, but i can't count the number of times that sadam was warned what would happen. but he stubbornly, and stupidly, wouldn't just give in. He was the one responsible for bringing this apon his people. it kind of reminds me of kids... you warn them, they don't listen, you warn them again, then because you didn't follow through with your first warning, the child assumes you don't mean it. unless warnings are followed through, warnings are USELESS.

it reminds me of one of america's catch-22's (damned if you do, damned if you don't) if you run from police, then they assume you have a reason to run. even if you had no reason to run, you can still be charged with resisting arrest, even if they had no reason to chase you. sadam didn't want us to look around, so we made the logical assumption that he was hiding something.

in the end, i'm glad he's gone, and under the circumstances, it's unlikely there will be a dictator to take over for him. i couldn't say that for certain if he had died any other way. even if he wasn't working on WOMD's if he had the opportunity, i'm sure he would have been.

[Karbon]

Sorry, but Mahatma Ghandi said Jesus Christ by purpose:
you can't replace Jesus Christ with Muhammad.

Even if you believe that Jesus Christ was ONLY a prophet like Muhammad - there is a big difference:

Muhammad allowed to kill people for a 'good' reason (Jihaad).

Jesus Christ did not! He said: love your enemies...

Jihaad means struggle, not holy war. It's in reference to the struggles of life. It doesn't have anything to do with making war on others.. And at the time of his death, Muhammad almost single-handedly brought peace to all of Arabia - I think that's a task worthy of mention.

I grow tired of people trying to further pervert Islam. I'll quote an essay a Muslim friend wrote recently to a newspaper. After many long conversations with him about Islam (a religion I admittedly didn't know much about previous) I found great respect for it and it's teachings. I have the same respect for the Christian religion and teachings though I am neither a Christian or Muslim.

Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to 'slay (enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them' (4: 90).
In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2:190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2:191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).

I'm not advocating one religion over another. I'm just trying to point out that Islam has been perverted as a means to drive uneducated people to do horrible things. Christianity has also been perverted by lunatics in order to rally people for evil causes..

Osama bin Laden is no more a good Muslim than Paul Hill is a good Christian (the man recently put to death for the murder of a doctor that performed abortions).

[fsw]

Jihaad means struggle, not holy war. It's in reference to the struggles of life. It doesn't have anything to do with making war on others..

didn't know that, but I knew that the Quran quotes the Torah and actually suggests to read it too.

In the Koran, therefore, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2:190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2:191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40).

This is something that Gandhi and Jesus never would have done.

Both lived the PRINCIPLES OF NONVIOLENCE - this was my whole point when I quoted Gandhi.

[wayne1]

A true statement even if you replace Jesus Christ with Muhammad or any other religious icon. Most religions, including Islam and Christianity are very peaceful

UNTRUE!!

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

[Karbon]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.