3D Commands - as poor as it seems?

[Thade]

Hello
I bought PB some days ago and want to convert a project I started 16 month ago with Blitz3D.

There are a lot of reasons why I am that crazy - now the project is at a finishing level of about 95% - one is, that I want to concentrate on one programming language (updating and supporting the program and a new project after this one finished should be done in the same language - its always hard to switch between different philosophies). Another reason is the non-progress of Blitz3D since 1/2 a year now - in opposite to BP which made a giant step (as far as I read in the updatefiles) especially during the last weeks and months.

So I believe the future Basic #1 is named PureBasic.

Then there is Ogre that supports DirectX9, a.s.o.

But that's one critic point I have on PureBasic: The potential of Ogre does not shine in PB as it seems to me so far. The Commands that are available for 3D are so poor, that I am quite unsure, if it will be possible to convert the Project within one week as we have to, and then finish it in a reasonable time.

All other stuff seems to be so powerful compared to Blitz but the 3DEngine-Support - the most important in a 3D-World - lacks nearly everything that's possible. At least I have not found a slight thing yet, that could make me sure to have done the right decision.

So I have some questions - and I am sure the answers will prove me wrong - eh?

Example: I have a model (about 4000 Vertices, 3000 Triangles, 1 Texture - grouped in 54 Bones) - Keyvalues to animate them in a self-made animation-routine. (See picture, link below)
That means there are groups of vertices and triangles that form a bone. They each have a parent-joint where the child-group is rotated around, etc.
Where are the Commands in BP that can manage that? As far as I found out there is Rotateentity - but I read I can only rotate relative not direct and only a complete mesh - and around which point can I rotate? Where is the Command that sets the point where to rotate around?
Where are the Commands that lets you find out the names of the joints in an Ogre-mesh and form a child/parent-system to make an animation?
Is there a library that does it and I haven't found it?

Thanks for any help.

Some Example Pictures

[Kale]

The 3d side of things in PB has only recently been implemented (last 2 updates) so is a little unsubstantial at the minute. This will change in further updates where the full power of OGRE will be available, expect in the next update lots more 3d commands/tweaks.

P.S. Updates are usually released every 2-3 months

[Fred]

You're right, some essential commands still lacks in the current PB 3D engine implementation to do a descent game. It should be addressed step by step..

[LJ]

Some essential commands still lack!? Geezzz... for many of us the 3D engine never initializes and so none of the 3D commands even work. When I read stuff like this it makes me a little nervous. Before any new 3D commands are added, let's get the 3D engine working on as many computers as possible so that we can all cross the 3D programming bridge together.

Adding more 3D commands when as much as 25% of all Purebasic users computers the Init3DEngine command doesn't work and therefore no 3D commands work is having priorities in the wrong place.

This is a very serious issue as it relates to false advertising as well and can lead to many problems with new customers who claim to have purchased Purebasic for the 3D commands. This could cause Purebasic to have it's credit card processing capabilities pulled if enough people claim to have been "scammed".

I recommend stopping all new 3D development, and pulling the marketing literature that advertises Purebasic's 3D OGRE commands until the Init3DEngine problem is fixed.

[Fred]

I think you've gone too far here. Actually, I got only 2 mails for none initialising engine (you and another user) and I can't reproduce the bug, so what ?! I asked help from you by putting a special debug version at your proposal and it didn't give any valid result.

About the false advertising stuff, it's totally non-sense, why is a free Demo version for ? You always paid before testing a product or what ? Then it's your fault.

Anyway, this problem will probably solve by itself when I will use the new OGRE snapshot to compile the new 3D engine version.

[Thade]

I had no Problems yet - and this is the first time I hear about a "Malfunction" of the 3DEngine. Have you really worked out that the problem is 100 % sure on PureBasics side and has nothing to do with your machine?

I made several tests - and besides the lacking of some essential Commands concerning Handling of Meshes and Entities that I wrote above and to the devellopers personaly, I am satisfied so far.

And I can tell you - coming from Blitz3D I am used to hundreds of workarounds. My 16 month Blitzexperience is 6 month learning the secrets of the language, 8 month programming workarounds and 2 month working on a project. Without that hazzle my work could have been ready XMas last year.

And even worse - While that Experience went on I bought Dark Basic Pro in October thinking I could solve the Workaround Problems (after relatively good experience with Dark Basic V 1). But this Program is not even today able to work as it should. Every patch solves 500 bugs and adds 250 new ones). Its not possible to make a decent program besides some C64-Copy-Stuff they call Retros. - But that's not the future of Game-Programming I guess.

Although that sounds as if I am complaining - that would be the wrong impression - through the BlitzExperience I have learned more about Gameprogramming than with any other Program in the Past. So it was a timeconsuming but positive one! The disappointing thing is - and that's why I have landed here - that updating and develloping the language has stopped sometime between 6 and 10 month ago.

What makes me confident that it will work better with PB/Ogre is, that the 3D-System is complety open - that's the decisive point - you do not write workarounds in Basic to fill the holes of the Commandset - You write the Commandset yourself if needed...

And I am willing to do that even if I have to force myself to program in Assembler and C (what I didn't do for about 10 years now) again.

Although the comfortable way I would prefere is, that Frédéric announces the next 3D-Update tomorrow

[LJ]

@Thade: Then you don't read all the messages that are being posted. The problem with the 3D engine initializing goes back to version 3.7 release. Version 3.62 worked for everyone, but release 3.7 broke any 3D commands from functioning on many peoples computers. This conversation has gone on for months now but gets buried in other bug problems. If you search the Bug Reports, you will find plenty of messages.

@Fred: I've counted about 7 people who have the exact same problem with the InitEngine3D not initializing and have posted this problem in the various message forums. Two things to consider: 1) Not everyone who has this problem is going to send you a personal e-mail as your last message implies, 2) More and more will have this problem as they begin to experiment with the 3D commands. Many are on the learning curve of PureBasic and figure they want to experiment with application development, and then 2D games before venturing into 3D games. I told you 1 month ago that more and more people would come forward with this problem, in the last month 3 more people have come forward, and so I was right. I continue my prediction that more and more people will come forward with this problem as they begin to get their feet wet with the 3D engine programming.

About the false advertising, I agree with you, it is total non-sense especially when a free demo is available to try before you buy. Nevertheless, customers, many times are non-sense and will exhibit just such characteristics, especially your United States customers who have the belief the customer is always right.

I have produced 3 seperate software programs with a commulative sales of over 4,000 units over the last 6 years. In comparison I guess you to have at most 1,000 sales and Purebasic has been selling for maybe 2 years. This means that in dealing with United States customers, sales versus sales, I have more experience than you do at this thing and I'm telling you from one professional to another you'd better becareful with using advertising literature that advertises a feature that, on many computers, is just not there. You may consider rewording the section on advertising Purebasics 3D capabilities with a disclaimer that says: "Please note: Development of the 3D commands in Purebasic is still under heavy development. As such, it is not recommended you purchase Purebasic for 3D games creation at the moment as issues exist that prevent the 3D command set from running on some computers." A disclaimer like this can help protect you.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm not saying it's not stupid, it is stupid and you are right with a demo people should have all their rights for a refund waved, they should have found the error before they purchased. But in the United States, it doesn't work this way and anyone using a credit card can demand a refund and the credit card company will automatically give it when it comes to online commerce. As a merchant, you have to file a protest letter with the credit card company protesting the refund. A legal expert at the credit card company will review and determine if the customer gets a refund. More often than not, the credit card company sides with the customer because they don't want problems. All complaints are kept on file, and if your company receives X number of compliants/refunds, your merchant license (or that of the e-commerce provider you are using) will be pulled for limited liability issues.

The point of this message thread is for you to consider halting 3D development until the InitEngine3D command is given your full attention and compatibility issues are worked out. If you do not, this may become a snake that will later come back to bite you. Also note that while my experience is vast on selling software products online and dealing with such legal issues mentioned in this message, I am not a lawyer and my comments in this thread neither constitute nor are replacement for legal advice by registered Attorneys. So I have given you good advice that you haven't had to pay .1 cent for. But don't take my advice but instead run it by your attorneys or those of Fantasie Software. I hope you stay in business for a very long time Fred.

[Fred]

Thanks for your advice.

[RJP Computing]

@LJ
What is your problem. Are you threatening Fred?
I don't get your response at all. You posted so much help about the inline assembly. I thought you liked PureBasic.

I have produced 3 separate software programs with a commulative sales of over 4,000 units over the last 6 years. In comparison I guess you to have at most 1,000 sales and Purebasic has been selling for maybe 2 years.

Now I also would say if you are so professional and you have so much experience you should come up with your own programming language and quite with the flaming.

Remember that the 3D portion is in its second rev. Have you looked at Windows 2.0. I bet it had stuff that didn't work on ALL computers. All I am saying "Give Fred a chance" He will make it better.

I think the question that needs to be asked to the PureBasic users is: Does the InitEngine3D() command work for you?

I will be the first to say it works on at least on 20 computers that range from Windows 95 through Windows XP.

@Fred
Keep up the good word.

[Karbon]

I don't think LJ was threatening Fred - seems he is more kicking and screaming about a bug that has bitten him

This has *really* turned into a storm in a teacup.. There isn't much to be alarmed about here - especially someone claiming false advertising! In the unlikely event that might happen and someone wants their money back I seriously doubt it's going to mean the end of PureBasic

Now that we know there is a problem I'm sure Fred will find and fix it in no time.. As everyone has said already - 3D support in PB is brand spanking new so we should (and do) expect some problems with it.

[Rings]

LJ: give fred a chance to fix that online together with you with a special Debug-version of the 3d engine.

I can say that from the past, we (fred and mine) fixed several bugs and problems on NT4-machines successfully.

I'm working in software-industry for a long time and hate bugs that can not been reproduce.

[Berikco]

Yep, just a storm in a teacup.
There is no false advertising.
I tested the 3D on more than 20 computers, even installed win 98 on a PC with GeForce 400 MX, because a user in German forum got this 3D problem on exacly the same hardware.....for me all worked fine.

So stop threatening Fred, because that is what you do LJ, just give Fred a change to fix it. Maybe try to go online in chat like Rings says.
About all the legal stuff....no claim is possible, and i have 20 years experience, much more than you do at this thingof than you do at this thing and I'm telling you from one professional to another ...LOL
There is a demo version to test, This programme is provided "AS IS" you can read in terms and conditions.

[Fred]

Ok, I'm locking this topic as there is going to nowhere.