General opinion on possible commercial projects.

[jassing]

This is purely an "Is it worth doing" type of question.

Project 1
For years, I used TrueUpdate by IndigoRose to handle updates to applications. Not all my clients wanted it, or needed it; so over the years I developed a few methods to handle it. However, in the state it's in, it's still considered "custom". I have been mulling it over to create a more generic version (either as a DLL that a programmer could call, or as an exe that is run). Some small scripting ability is possible.

Project 2
a very long time ago; I was briefly involved in scoping out solutions for event (ie: computer conference, php conference, etc) attendees, handling room reservations for focused discussion, and general "check-in". I have tinkered with it on and off and have worked out bugs. Currently the app can take a reservation, mark it as paid or not; and when teh person checks-in at the event; a picture is taken, name badge printed with a photo and bar code on it. Individual room conferences can scan teh id tag to either track users or check that they should be there or not.

Anyone think either of these have any commercial value? and if not commercial, as shareware? Freeware? I would rather make a few bucks; but if there isn't a real market out there; then there is little point to putting it all together & finish/polish them.

[TI-994A]

Anyone think either of these have any commercial value?

Hello jassing. IMHO, you could find good commercial viability in the products you mentioned. However, commercial viability is less about the product, and more about finding the right customer base. In my personal experience, there's a substantial paying market for even the simplest programs. It doesn't really make sense, especially in today's internet age, where full-blown commercial-quality programs can be availed for free. But fortunately, not all consumers know about such offerings, and those who do may just not prefer to use or depend on freebies.

To give you an indication, in 1995, I developed a simple enrollment application in Visual Basic, that merely registers new students and prints out payment receipts. This was sold to the client that commissioned it for around US$2,000.00! Today, although the same process can be effectively performed in Access, Excel, or even by a freely-downloadable program, I'm still able to sell the very same application (totally re-written in PureBasic of course) for upto US$500.00.

Compare this with my current uphill battle to break into the mobile platform market, where a lot of hard work (to learn Objective-C and Java) will eventually be sold for only a few bucks. Although I'm hoping that the sales volume may prove worthwhile, the stark contrast in commercial returns is almost illogical.

My advise; put it out there. You'll be surprised.

[jassing]

Thanks --

The "update" program, I already have a customer base that would buy it (at least some of them would) -- I had planned on something like "the update program itself is free, but if you want scripting ability, you need to pay" I had envisioned a price of about $50; however, my customer base alone would not make it completely worth my while, I would need outside sales as well.

The event registration is one that I know there is a market for, and it always seems to be a last minute rush thing; where people pay way more than they should. Attending such events, I have yet to see a smooth system in place to help with general registration, and then badges that could be scanned to be sure the person is permitted, say, to the VIP area, or a special add-on lecture (ie: pay for it) -- the picture on the badge, i've never seen, but would give a visual clue to "Was this badge stolen?" It has applications beyond events -- checking in to a school campus or a visiting nurse to a hospital needing a day-pass thing. (My wife is a nurse, and sometimes she takes her patients to the hospital, where they have a generic badge that reads "VISITOR"; but no identification beyond that, so doctors, lab staff, or even equipment installers, all have the same "VISITOR" badge, and no way to see if that person got the badge today, yesterday, or if it was stolen)

However, knowing there's a market, and marketing it are two completely different things.

[Tenaja]

Commercial viability has a broad definition. For a young, single guy with more time than money, it doesn't take much to develop a program just to test the sales. You have to weigh how much time you will spend developing it, and if the potential benefits will pay off. This is one reason young people can start so many businesses; other people look at something and say "it's not worth it. I enjoy my son's soccer games too much." Or a company may say "that will cost more to pay the programmer than I will sell in a year". So, if you have time, and don't mind having a possible valuation of $2/hr (in California, minimum wage is like 9/hr), then by all means, go for it. If you want guarantees, then forget it.

You must also see that very few people here have made profitable businesses selling software to PB users. You must open your customer base, or it will be just a hobby that brought you a few dollars.

As for your specific examples, personally, I use two types of utilities: those from established companies (like PB), and open source. I would not buy your installer. (Not for work. Maybe if you contributed so much to the forum that I wanted to show gratitude, personally.) The reason is longevity and stability. I will not use any share-ware libraries offered on the forum that is not open source. When there is a PB update, the libraries often break temporarily. (The most reason example of this frustration was ScintillaStatic.) I have found multiple "handy" libraries written 10+ years ago, and the developer is not longer available for help, much less making it work with modern PB. As much as gnozal is a stable contributor to this forum with many "free" libraries, those libraries are used for nothing more than observation. I do not have the luxury of time to wait for an update; I'd rather code it myself. On a few occasions, I have purchased the source for security.

But like TI said, there are others out there with differing skills and knowledge bases. You never know, except that there are no guarantees.

[BorisTheOld]

I've been programming for 50 years and operating my own business for 36 years, and looking back I have to say that I've never made money selling software.

It takes a lot of time and effort to develop good software, but the return on sales rarely pays for all the R&D, programming, and promotion. I could never sell software for its true value - only for what my customers were willing to pay. But I very quickly learned that support and upgrades are the big money makers.

My arrangement with customers is that I own the software, but I will add any feature for a price. However, that feature then becomes part of the application, and all my other customers get it as a free upgrade. No one has ever complained, and only a few small customers have never paid for extra features.

A couple more things worth considering. Programmers never buy software, so it's not worth trying to make money from programming tools. I've never advertised - all my business has been aquired via business contacts or from referals. And lastly, I only deal with customers who have no IT department. That way my company not only provides software, but it also becomes the customer's IT department - for a fee, of course!

It's rather like the auto industry. There's no profit in selling a car - the big money is made by selling parts and service.

[tj1010]

I've been programming for 50 years and operating my own business for 36 years, and looking back I have to say that I've never made money selling software.

It takes a lot of time and effort to develop good software, but the return on sales rarely pays for all the R&D, programming, and promotion. I could never sell software for its true value - only for what my customers were willing to pay. But I very quickly learned that support and upgrades are the big money makers.

My arrangement with customers is that I own the software, but I will add any feature for a price. However, that feature then becomes part of the application, and all my other customers get it as a free upgrade. No one has ever complained, and only a few small customers have never paid for extra features.

A couple more things worth considering. Programmers never buy software, so it's not worth trying to make money from programming tools. I've never advertised - all my business has been aquired via business contacts or from referals. And lastly, I only deal with customers who have no IT department. That way my company not only provides software, but it also becomes the customer's IT department - for a fee, of course!

It's rather like the auto industry. There's no profit in selling a car - the big money is made by selling parts and service.

Unless you have investors, but even then it's only for web services and AAA games, and you will likely not cover investments in today's market without a major support infrastructure which is out of reach for small teams and bedroom coders, who don't have money to do sub-contracting/outsourcing etc..

Anyone who wants to really learn what it's like to be a working programmer(A.K.A. a dev who actually makes money without an employer), try freelancing through net bidding sites. If you like being nickel and dimed for weeks or months worth of work by people who can barely do math and write, let alone collaborate or manage the development of a software product, do that. As a single developer you will be lucky to hit $8k USD on a productive year. I have seen people who made that or more with freelancing annually, but it was with strong social and business networking.

[MachineCode]

This is one reason young people can start so many businesses; other people look at something and say "it's not worth it. I enjoy my son's soccer games too much."

And that's the correct attitude. Family always comes first.

[TI-994A]

...I've never made money selling software.

...As a single developer you will be lucky to hit $8k USD on a productive year.

Firstly, please let me say that I love programming, and it has been an all-consuming lifelong passion. However, it would not have been a career choice if it were not a lucrative one. Suffice it to say, that as a one-man kitchen table developer, the returns are far better than any other business I've ventured into, and far, far better than any equivalent professional position I've held. And the best part is, it's totally not labour or capital intensive.

My secret: write once - sell many!

[tj1010]

...I've never made money selling software.

...As a single developer you will be lucky to hit $8k USD on a productive year.

Firstly, please let me say that I love programming, and it has been an all-consuming lifelong passion. However, it would not have been a career choice if it were not a lucrative one. Suffice it to say, that as a one-man kitchen table developer, the returns are far better than any other business I've ventured into, and far, far better than any equivalent professional position I've held. And the best part is, it's totally not labour or capital intensive.

My secret: write once - sell many!

Unfortunately turn-around on something you could license to cover even minimalist living expenses conflicts with typical rent costs and frequency; at least, in today's market. I notice a lot of articles and opinions on the internet are from people who inherit wealth and/or homes, or rather, people who are completely disconnected with the realities(logistics and economics) of the common person who has to pay their own way.

When your rent is say, $650 a month, and you don't sale enough licenses or get enough contracts in a month or week, the person owning your place isn't going to care much why you can't pay them.. People in this reality don't have the option to lay back and/or be incompotent..

It's actually the reality no matter what industry you freelance in..

[TI-994A]

Unfortunately turn-around on something you could license to cover even minimalist living expenses conflicts with typical rent costs and frequency; at least, in today's market. I notice a lot of articles and opinions on the internet are from people who inherit wealth and/or homes, or rather, people who are completely disconnected with the realities(logistics and economics) of the common person who has to pay their own way.

When your rent is say, $650 a month, and you don't sale enough licenses or get enough contracts in a month or week, the person owning your place isn't going to care much why you can't pay them.. People in this reality don't have the option to lay back and/or be incompotent..

It's actually the reality no matter what industry you freelance in..

Hello tj1010. Believe it or not, I've been there; while supporting a family. Daunting times.

I can't really comment on your business model, nor can I compare it with mine. However, our bases can't be that different; I work from home, develop mostly in BASIC, and my only income is from my software sales. In all honesty, I'm a little more comfortable now, but I still pay rent.

You're right about one thing though; it's the same regardless of the industry, but success or failure depends solely on the individual.

[Demivec]

It's actually the reality no matter what industry you freelance in..

Judging from your posting style, your industry must be spamming.

[tj1010]

It's actually the reality no matter what industry you freelance in..

Judging from your posting style, your industry must be spamming.

Why, cause I've posted in most of the latest threads in this section? By the way "spamming"=uninvited-solicitation. Making relevant posts, each after at least one response and all 1-~5 per thread, isn't "spamming". If you don't like alternative opinions, lurking a general section of a public forum probably isn't the wisest choice of activities.. Especially if you want to post illogical and inconsistent "faqs" based on education and experience you don't have..

I'm pretty sure you're only grabbing for hater-straws cause of me pointing out the idiocy in some other threads.. Like the one where people suggested nuclear warheads and EMPs could 'take out America'. With the most powerful of any having a destructive radius of twenty miles, and the target, America, being a three-million square mile continent with segregated water and electrical grids, on top of the second best defense system in the world..

Now people are suggesting you can cover monthly living expenses of $800+ USD consistently, just being a freelance developer. I've done this from the kitchen table in a Russian ghetto and from a comfy bedroom in America, but it was only by exceptional means and networking with people who had money to waste, mostly American venture capitalists with stupid ideas, and me alone working with no sleep for days.. Only speaking as someone who has actually done it and knows the actual economics of self-employment in multiple industries..

Waits to be told he is wrong based on absolutely nothing.. again

[Fred]

@tj101: It was because your post was posted 4 times, due to server slowness. I deleted the 3 other posts, so it was more like a joke than anything else

[tj1010]

@tj101: It was because your post was posted 4 times, due to server slowness. I deleted the 3 other posts, so it was more like a joke than anything else

The server actually timed out most of the day yesterday in the -4 and -5 time zones. I did try to re-post a few times instead of pasting, or writing later. I'm one of those stupid people who has a schedule..

What I find interesting about the claims here, is that I scrape the top three freelancing sites, and the average contracts have a one to two week turn-around with a budget of <$500, and are usually "awarded" to bids <$200. Like I said, without business and/or social networking you won't cover adult living expenses, even without a family. Unless of course you have a roommate in an apartment or cheap house..

I'm only going by actual data and experience.. If you're getting paid ~3k USD by someone you play golf with or a friends friend, to design a website, app, or some software with a fast turn-around, you are "networking" and aren't an average case,,, obviously..

[TI-994A]

...I scrape the top three freelancing sites, and the average contracts have a one to two week turn-around with a budget of <$500, and are usually "awarded" to bids <$200. Like I said, without business and/or social networking you won't cover adult living expenses...

There's working hard, and there's working smart, but sitting in front of a computer terminal hoping for work to roll your way is neither.

I'm only going by actual data and experience.. If you're getting paid ~3k USD by someone you play golf with or a friends friend, to design a website, app, or some software with a fast turn-around, you are "networking" and aren't an average case,,, obviously..

Your data must be based on your personal experience, because you seem to think that being networked is a privilege.