another free form designer...

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:22 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Rings.

Originally posted by tranquil

Software is like sex, its better when its free.

OpenSource roxx. As long as I code, >I< will do it for free. Ever and forever (expecting firms).

Thats my opinion. Only wanted to mentioned it here. )

Anyway, PB was its money worth. EVERY CENT!

Cheers
Mike

Tranquilizer/ Secretly!

Mike, there are some guys in the forum who lives and make money with their Programmingskills.You have a job nothing to do with selling/develope Software, i have to fight day by day with Software we sell and my salary depends on this selling software and my skills.
You can give something for free, why not it doesn`t effect your salary.That is the point of view.
I use often some stuff from Pure here at work to develope better stuff,for example the whole SQL (Thx again Fred ).But without my Dayjob i never had post a snippet like 'to create DSN on the fly' or anything else.So thank my customers for a whole bunch of snippets i wrote.
But there is always a point where there is a STOP-sign showing me that these tips and techniques i develope are not for the public......
I develope some security stuff for our own software with Purebasic...
And of course Danilo is totaly right.Here at work we use 3Party-Tools costs 500$ and more, but that is not the point.These tools reduces developing time.time is money.So does for example Purevision do it for me.Saving 10 hours eleminating the price of such toolz.Purevision' price is eleminating in 1 day.
Or the 3Party Tools do some stuff that native Purebasic did not or not well enough.And if such a Tool/Lib/Dll reduce my developetime hours.20$ are NOTHING !
I have no problem that you code for free mike, its yours .
All wellknown language have 3Party-Developer.....why not Pure ?
We will see the future when some guys release there Tools/libs/Dlls for Purebasic NOT for free...........

Thats my opinion. Only wanted to mentioned it here also.

)

Its a long way to the top if you wanna .....CodeGuru

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:24 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Henrik.

Hi
*tranquil i guess your not married ;o)

I personally don't fancy the VB style off editing.
But that said i tried Purevision and i think it's very Professionel and if i
remember correct "poul" i think promise to maintain it and keep it up to date in the future.
For that, i think 20$ is a very fair price.

cya.
Henrik.

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 2:54 pm

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Justin.

Thanks ricardo, i'll see if i can set up another payment method.

yes , is coded in PB using 2 commercial c dlls:

http://www.larts.co.uk/Software/DialogEditor.html

if you run the example you'll see i improved the concept a little with the floating menu. even with these dlls it hasn't been easy , i founded a lot of problems.

i want to improve it if i can't find or buy a better one , 1st thing will be context menu with cut/copy/paste.

another thing i want to do is output dialogs instead of windows , i REALLY need dialogs. 1st i have to figure out the dialog structures , wich are very, very tricky.

Danilo , how is going your dialog editor? , i don't want to reinvent the wheel. i would pay for it instead of coding mine. are you going to release it soon?

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:06 pm

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by blueb.

I have to agree with Danilo and Rings.

I have sold some of my software to businesses. I had to purchase tools to do this with. Free tools can help of course, but I want the best tool for the job. If it saves me time, I'm more than willing to pay for it. (you just have to prove to me that it's worth it

)

I think, a 3rd party section of the forum is a good idea. It might start getting PureBasic programmers thinking of making better programs that are sellable. Profit is not a bad word.

--blueb

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:11 pm

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by ricardo.

If it saves me time, I'm more than willing to pay for it.

The situation here is a fact of small market.
We are releasing for free, not because we are bad guys, its because we dont have the time to fix and give support. Why? because this will consume all our time (or a big amount of it) and the market here are very small.
Once the PB communitu grows (its growing now i think) the situation may change.

I think, a 3rd party section of the forum is a good idea. It might start getting PureBasic programmers thinking of making better programs that are sellable. Profit is not a bad word.

Of course Profit is not a bad word. Everybody here makes profit of his occupation, whatever it is.
As i said is just a arithmetic problem: small market.

Develope a big app and mantain it could take months of hard work... and how many copies could you expect to sell?

But there will be a time when this will change.
Until then we will see a lot of free stuff here i guess.

If profit is not a bad work, giving for free isnt a bad word too....

Best Regards

Ricardo

Dont cry for me Argentina...

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:43 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by ricardo.

As it seams that we are on the GUI festival, and tonight i was bored, i decide to make my own Visual Basic form (.frm) to Pure Basic.
I know there are some other (and better ones) outthere, but i was bored.

I hope someone want to continue with me this code.
Maybe its horrible coded, its 3:00 a.m. here and i take only 20 minutes developing it. But the idea is here:

Code: Select all

Global File.s, Start.l, Object.l, x.l, y.l, w.l, h.l, c.s, GadgetNum.l

Procedure Parsea(Linea.s)
  If FindString(Linea,"Begin",0) 0
    Start.l = 1
    ;MessageRequester("Begin",Linea,0)
    ;-IDENTIFICA LOS OBJETOS
    If FindString(Linea,"VB.Form",0) 0
      Object = 0
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.CommandButton",0) 0
      Object = 1
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.TextBox",0) 0
      Object = 2
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.Label",0) 0
      Object = 3
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.ListBox",0) 0
      Object = 4
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.ComboBox",0) 0
      Object = 5
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.OptionButton",0) 0
      Object = 6
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.CheckBox",0) 0
      Object = 7
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.Frame",0) 0
      Object = 8
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"VB.PictureBox",0) 0
      Object = 9
    EndIf
    
  ElseIf  FindString(Linea,"End",0) 0 Or FindString(Linea,"StartUpPosition",0) 0
    If Start = 1
      Start = 0
      Select Object
        
      Case 0
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("If OpenWindow(" + Str(WindowNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h) + ",#PB_Window_SystemMenu" + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        WriteString(" CreateGadgetList(WindowID())" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
        UseFile(0)
        WindowNum = WindowNum + 1
        
      Case 1
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   ButtonGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 2
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   StringGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 3
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   TextGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 4
        NumList = NumList + 1
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   ListViewGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        WriteString("      AddGadgetItem(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ", 0," + Chr(34) + "List" + Str(NumList) + Chr(34) + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 5
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   ComboBoxGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        WriteString("      AddGadgetItem(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ", 0," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 6
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   OptionGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 7
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   CheckBoxGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 8
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   Frame3DGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      Case 9
        UseFile(1)
        WriteString("   ImageGadget(" + Str(GadgetNum) + ","  + Str(x)  + "," + Str(y)  + "," + Str(w)  + "," + Str(h)  + "," + c.s + ")" + Chr(13) + Chr(10)       )
        UseFile(0)
        GadgetNum = GadgetNum + 1
        
      EndSelect
      
    EndIf
    
  ElseIf FindString(Linea,"Attribute VB_Name",0) 0
    UseFile(1)
    WriteString("     Repeat" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
    WriteString("       EventID=WaitWindowEvent()" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
    WriteString("     Until EventID=#PB_EventCloseWindow" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
    WriteString("EndIf" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
    WriteString("End" + Chr(13) + Chr(10))
    Delay(100)
    MessageRequester("End","Done",0)
    CloseFile(1)
    CloseFile(0)
    ShellExecute_(WindowID(),"open",File + ".pb","","",0)
    End
    
  Else
    
    Pos.l = FindString(Linea,"=",1)
    Valor$ = Mid(Linea,Pos+1,Len(Linea) - Pos)
    
    If FindString(Linea,"Top ",0) 0
      y = Val(Trim(Valor$))/15
      ;MessageRequester(Linea + " -TOP- " + Valor$,Str(Val(Trim(Valor$))/15),0)
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"Left ",0) 0
      x = Val(Trim(Valor$))/15
      ;MessageRequester(Linea + " -LEFT- " + Valor$,Str(Val(Trim(Valor$))/15),0)
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"Height ",0) 0 And FindString(Linea,"ScaleHeight ",0) = 0
      h = Val(Trim(Valor$))/15
      ;MessageRequester(Linea + " -HEIGHT- " + Valor$,Str(Val(Trim(Valor$))/15),0)
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"Width ",0) 0 And FindString(Linea,"ScaleWidth ",0) = 0
      w = Val(Trim(Valor$))/15
      ;MessageRequester(Linea + " -WIDTH- " + Valor$,Str(Val(Trim(Valor$))/15),0)
    ElseIf FindString(Linea,"Caption ",0) 0 Or FindString(Linea,"Text ",0)
      c = Trim(Valor$)
    EndIf
    
    
  EndIf
EndProcedure


If OpenWindow(0,100,150,450,200,#PB_Window_SystemMenu,"VB to PB GUI converter")
  CreateGadgetList(WindowID())
  StringGadget(1,50,50,350,20,"")
  ButtonGadget(2,200,100,50,25,"Test")
  Repeat
    EventID=WaitWindowEvent()
    
    Select EventID
      
    Case #PB_EventGadget
      Select EventGadgetID()
      Case 2
        FileName$ = OpenFileRequester("Select a form","","*.frm",0)
        SetWindowText_(WindowID(),"Vaaaaaaaaaaaa")
        SetWindowText_(WindowID(),FileName$)
        If FileName$
          
          SetWindowText_(WindowID(),FileName$)
          If ReadFile(0,FileName$)
            DeleteFile(FileName$ + ".pb")
            Delay(100)
            OpenFile(1,FileName$ + ".pb")
            File = FileName$
            UseFile(0)
            Repeat
              Delay(1)
              Line$ = ReadString()
              SetWindowText_(WindowID(),Line$)              
              Parsea(Line$)
              If Loc()=> FileSize(FileName$)
                Final = 1
              EndIf
              
            Until Final = 1
            SetWindowText_(WindowID(),"Final")
            CloseFile(0)
            CloseFile(1)
            MessageRequester("End","",0)
          EndIf
        EndIf
      EndSelect
      
    EndSelect
    
  Until EventID=#PB_EventCloseWindow
EndIf

Ideas, suggestions are welcome.

Best Regards

Ricardo

Dont cry for me Argentina...

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:03 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by koehler.

OK, I am a little stumped here, and I've Officially bought into Pure Basic!

Nowhere do I see anyone DEMANDING that everyone release their software for free.
Nowhere.

I DO see several people mention that such and such is free and a good app, and that there are OTHER apps that are equally as good, and are NOT FREE.

There are absolutely reasons why Free is good, and Not-Free is good.
The problem is, as long as PB is small relative to other *Basics, and languages, there is simply a smaller market in which to sell too.

This is a pretty simple economics problem.
As long as PB is a small community, there will be only a limited number of buys, of ANY applcation.
As such, there is not going to be a lot of interest in developing for PB coders, on a commercial basis, as there will be only limited returns. However, the down-sdie is the long-term Support demands might mean the Developer is stuck either supporting a product which sold only lightly, or having his reputation soiled as someone who screwed over his users by dropping support after a short time.

Of course, this doesn't really answer the question of Free vs Profit.
But then, I am really only reading a few posts where people who seem to be coding for profit are getting all bent out of shape for some reason.....

If I need a tool, I will of course first look at what is freely available.
If it will do what I need, then I will use it, and might even toss the author a few $$ as a Thank You.

If a Retail App will better fit my needs, then I will buy that. And I will expect the Support to be quick and the Customer Service to be much more professional. If it is not, I will certainly make that known. That being said, I certainly find that some of the above mentioned apps are quite nice looking, and imagine that $10-20 is certainly a fair price to ask.

On the other hand, the more Free tools there are, then the more people will be able to code their apps, and their quality should also be better since they are not all re-inventing the wheel.

Like it or not, free apps/tools are what lift the majority of a community's coders up a notch or two, in their coding output. Look at what Blitz has in the way of free tools, and then look at the quality of many of their 'average' coders...

And Ricardo, I don't know why Danilo seemed to go off the deep end there, however I did not see anything in your post's which demanded anyone release their hard work for free. I don't know who is getting hate mail, however I would like to think that the PB community can not turn into something like the DarkBasic one, where we have to resort to name gross generalizations and negative innuendo.

Of course, I need to follow my own advice here as well

For fun, try perusing the Blitz forums, and see how many people are releasing their code/apps, and how beneficial it is to their cause.

Personally, I would like to see Fred start a Poll, and get feedback from his community on what they want at this point, new/better 3D, OR consolidation and refinement of PB's existing commands/structures.

OK, I am done spouting off.

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:55 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Danilo.

> And Ricardo, I don't know why Danilo seemed to go off the deep end there,
> however I did not see anything in your post's which demanded anyone release
> their hard work for free.

It was a general thing and i didnt mention
Ricardo anywhere in my posting.
Otherwise i had written "Ricardo, why do you think..."

cya,
...Danilo
(registered PureBasic user)

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:08 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by koehler.

OK, however it did seem the other way around.

And I still don't see where anyone was demanding that everybody release code for free though.
Did I miss that thread?

The more free tools that are available, the more people will be interested enough to buy into PB, instead of others. And I would submit that we -want- more people to buy into PB, because that would give Fred more incentive to expand and encompass more 'wishlist' items.
And, the more people who own PB means more people who might want to buy a $10-20 tool

So, its the Chicken and the Egg problem at this point in time.
If people aren't interested in 'giving back' to the community, then they will not really have an excuse to complain if PB remains a small community. And, one that really could lose members to 'other' *Basics where those communities do have a stronger free-ware culture.

Just my general observations and $0.02 worth.

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:50 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Danilo.

> And I still don't see where anyone was demanding that everybody
> release code for free though.
> Did I miss that thread?

"Thats the general atmosphere in this community
and i dont understand that."

With 'general atmosphere' i ment not this thread
but many threads together.

> If people aren't interested in 'giving back' to the community,
> then they will not really have an excuse to complain if PB
> remains a small community.

Well, i made over 1850 posting to the forums (english and german)
in round about 1 year and 2 month and wrote some hundred examples
for helping starters. I try to help to improve the PB editor too
and so on...
...so i dont think i didnt help PureBasic to grow.
Some people told me they bought PureBasic only because they got my
help in german forum.

It may be that it looked like people want always everything for free
because only such people said something about this topic.

3rd party developers dont get very motivated to develop for this
community/language if they read this only, thats what i had in mind.
And if 3rd party developers tried to make something for the community
and get hate-mails as response its FOR SURE very very dismotivating.
Maybe the hate-mail writers are only little kids, because this topic
gives the whole thing a little different touch (good to talk about it

).

I dont want to discuss about this for the next 2 month,
so let us shut this discussion.
I understood everything what different people in this thread
said... if you dont understand me it may be because i cant
explain too good in english.

Thanks anyway for all your answers.

@Justin:
> another thing i want to do is output dialogs instead of windows,
> i REALLY need dialogs.

You can contact me privately if you want, Justin.
I dont understand -at this time- why someone REALLY needs Dialogs
if you already have the easy PB-Window-Handling.

cya,
...Danilo
(registered PureBasic user)

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:18 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by koehler.

I understand, and also know that you seem to be one of the top PB programmers here, at least thats what I get from reading some of your posts.

You know, have you thought of getting all your tutorials, tips and such, and perhaps making a small book out of it? I skimmed the docs that came with the demo, but haven't had a chance to look at those that come with the retail version yet. I expect they are the same.

If someone wanted to make a little $$, I'm sure a number of people here, especially us newcomers, might be willing to part with $10 for a solid book/ebook that really covered the basics.

Sort of a home grown "PureBasic for Dummies"....

Heck, if you made it $5 via PayPal or something, you could make quite some klein geld.

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:40 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Danilo.

There is a 300-pages .PDF book available for PureBasic,
but only in german language atm.
http://www.topos-web.de/docs/purebasic/handbuch.pdf (its for PB 3.20 only)

If somebody here wants to invest the time and translate
it to english...

And dont get it wrong koehler, i dont want to make money
out of everything i do. Would be silly.
Especially not from beginners, that wouldnt be nice.

Lets say i write some libraries and tools for PureBasic:
Half of it could be free (light version) and the more
advanced stuff could become shareware.

Anyway... have fun coding.

cya,
...Danilo
(registered PureBasic user)

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:36 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by TheBeck.

I am going to start translating this because I know their are people here that need it. No promises though, my German is about as good as a bablefish, hint, hint.

Update:

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:37 am

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by Justin.

Danilo , dialogs are a 'must have' in my opinion.

i would say 80% of the apps in my computer(and in most of us) use dialogs, i think that is very significant.

i've finished 3-4 PB projects and in all of them i needed dialogs, look at my window editor , the grid settings and gadget properties windows have to be dialogs, i had to use toolwindows, registering a new wnd class, enabling and disabling the other windows etc, and they are still worse than true dialogs.

Another example is the compiler options window of the PB Editor, that should be a dialog, not a separate window.

Dialogs are vastly used, i don't want to bore everyone explaining their benefits or differences between windows.

Thanks to your dialog example i think i figured out how it works, it should be fairly easy to implement the basic controls as a start, i could release it next week.

anyways maybe i'll email you to talk about this.

BackupUser · Post by **BackupUser** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:10 pm

Restored from previous forum. Originally posted by redacid.

Dialogs are vastly used, i don't want to bore everyone explaining their benefits or differences between windows.

Please bore us...I don't really know why I should use dialogs instead of windows.

regards,
Redacid
---
Viva Los Tioz!
registered user of PB3.50 on WinXP SP1