one tragic centre

[luis]

I just don't see one.

Not specifically with 9/11, but generally a good reason could be to instill the idea you are living in constant danger, that you have to be protected by the people who knows what's better for you, and that in time you have to give away little pieces of yourself (a little privacy here, a little freedom there) in exchange for a dubious sense of security. And feel grateful in doing so.

I see a marked tendency in that direction for the future.

[PB]

> I find it hard to believe that a building as tall as the WTC towers were would
> naturally collapse in on themselves after being struck by one airplane

And yet you've seen it with your own eyes. It's not a magic trick. It happened.

[netmaestro]

Building 7 went down in exactly the same manner and it wasn't hit by an airplane. Three buildings collapse in an identical manner, two were hit by an airplane and one was not. Also, burning jet fuel and combustibles such as are found in highrise office buildings are incapable of reaching temperatures high enough to melt steel beams. They're melted nonetheless. Questions do abound, questions that nist either ignores or outright lies about. For example, they deny having heard of any witnesses seeing molten metal in the basements in the ensuing days, yet firefighter after firefighter is shown describing it. An important factor in this is that these engineers (and there are over 400 of them) are not conspiracy theorists. They are simply professionals who know when they're being fed a pack of lies and they want to know why.

[Seymour Clufley]

The details from either side of this "debate" get confusing for the non-engineer-minded, such as myself, but the political ramifications are fascinating.

If it was a government job, surely it's one of the most audacious acts in history? Even more audacious than if it was a terrorist act, because terrorists are expected to try this kind of thing.

I mean, I give a lot of credence to the idea that, in the West, our governments are acting against us. I think it is quite probable. I think the European Union is, more likely than not, the groundwork for transforming our societies out of recognition. The fact they wanted an EU "national anthem", and that it has its own flag, suggest that nationhood (in the minds of our leaders anyway) has had its day.

So the idea that something similar is going on in America... well, it's got some mileage with me.

[the.weavster]

I just don't see one.

Not specifically with 9/11, but generally a good reason could be to instill the idea you are living in constant danger, that you have to be protected by the people who knows what's better for you, and that in time you have to give away little pieces of yourself (a little privacy here, a little freedom there) in exchange for a dubious sense of security. And feel grateful in doing so.

I see a marked tendency in that direction for the future.

I'm not a believer in the 9/11 conspiracy theories but there's no doubt the last UK government, which was extremely authoritarian, exploited the situation in just the way you describe.

[Rook Zimbabwe]

It isn't the governments acting against us... it is the Politicians and Laarge Corps that own our souls!!!

The third tower went down due the ground stress and shock from the impacts and fires on the others.... I suspect if a Cat5 hurricane had ever hit NYC they would have toppled as well!!!

[netmaestro]

I suspect if a Cat5 hurricane had ever hit NYC they would have toppled as well!!!

Straight down in freefall right into its own footprint?

[freak]

Questions do abound, questions that nist either ignores or outright lies about. For example, they deny having heard of any witnesses seeing molten metal in the basements in the ensuing days, yet firefighter after firefighter is shown describing it.

Read what they say about it:

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/fact ... 082006.cfm

They don't deny it. They say it was irrelevant to their investigation.

[Demivec]

I wouldn't have posted this link if it wasn't (especially) free of any conspiring aims.

To scrutinize the collaborated 'official reports' by a ragbag of independent (?) scientist not only is fair to do in an open democracy, but often the only chance for average people to get some valuable (discursive) aspects about the dependency of (physical) facts.

In these respects I find this report worth notable.

I agree that the information presented is largely free of conspiring aims, something I detest. Thanks for posting the link to this, I found it useful.

[skywalk]

Maybe its just me, but i tend to trust the research institute with its 43 volumes of research available for public review (and therefore scrutinized by scientists around the world who understand the matter) rather than the wacko who put together a video in his basement. But then again, NIST is a government organization, so its all part of the big conspiracy, right?

Anyway, the reason i *yawn*-ed was because it has been 9 years of always the same BS discussion. Doesn't the internet have anything more interesting to offer than that?

Man o man
The best way to confuse the general public or anyone for that matter, be they scientist or lay person, IS to compound and confuse with volumes of data. If you really can't prove or disprove something, then keep talking or writing ad nauseam on some minutia. Then claim superiority of source and your naysayers will look foolish?

The FDA approves drugs every day after 7 years or more of studies and trials...and then we have the reality of Celebrex deaths or Swine Flu shots that contain cancerous pig material?
The recent US Health Care bill was so large and confusing, our Speaker Pelosi said "We will find out what's in the bill after we pass it."
The recent bailout of the US financial sector was so large and rushed that it allowed Goldman Sachs to pay bonuses of $300k per employee. (They didn't of course.)

It is because of the existence of the internet and its swift access to video and varying expert opinions that we are ultimately able to see the "emperor truly has no clothes." But, the emperor does have our money

As an engineer, I believe this author and his videos are more in the spirit of educating the public instead of overwhelming them with bluster. Simplicity is key.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YRUso7Nf3s
http://www.youtube.com/user/physicsandr ... ejFUDlV81w
http://www.youtube.com/user/physicsandr ... vQDFV1HINw
http://www.youtube.com/user/physicsandr ... gZLXI3whGA

The World Trade Center collapse of 3 buildings(yes, the smaller building #7 is the most confusing and suspicious) is not explained.
There has been no explanation for the existence of thermite at the site?
There has been no physical reproduction or simulation that would allow 3 buildings to fall in the highly skilled demolition or "pancaking" nature as we all witnessed.
And, when the buildings did proceed to give way, there was no delay between floors(as each layer dropped), which by itself, implies the resistance of each floor support was non-existent.

Hooray for the internet and the existence of doubters!

...end of rant...

[freak]

Man o man
The best way to confuse the general public or anyone for that matter, be they scientist or lay person, IS to compound and confuse with volumes of data. If you really can't prove or disprove something, then keep talking or writing ad nauseam on some minutia. Then claim superiority of source and your naysayers will look foolish?

So you are saying less information is better?

The World Trade Center collapse of 3 buildings(yes, the smaller building #7 is the most confusing and suspicious) is not explained.
There has been no explanation for the existence of thermite at the site?
There has been no physical reproduction or simulation that would allow 3 buildings to fall in the highly skilled demolition or "pancaking" nature as we all witnessed.

So you want more information? Which is it now?

[skywalk]

No, just waiting for quality of information, instead of quantity.

[utopiomania]

The official investigations that followed this incident is all you need to understand what happened, it was not an 'inside job' it was exactly what you saw on the tube.

There was a program on national telly here explaining all this. They interviewed different people who was involved in the investigations, and everything that happened had a perfect logical explanation.

What happened was what happens if muslim assholes did what they did, nothing else. There's no need to help those people by blaming the American goverment or other people for this.

[skywalk]

The official investigations that followed this incident is all you need to understand what happened, it was not an 'inside job' it was exactly what you saw on the tube.

uhmmmm...no.
Watch the video posted by Vera or the shorter ones I listed.
I prefer independent investigations over "official" ones.
Our Gulf was "officially" claimed oil free as the oil appeared to vanish?
Upon further review, quite a lot has been discovered on the floor of the Gulf

What happened was what happens if muslim assholes did what they did, nothing else. There's no need to help those people by blaming the American goverment or other people for this.

I think many are misinterpreting the motives of the naysayers.
We demand more thorough explanations and in the end, all will benefit from the knowledge obtained.
Ignoring or delaying or ridiculing glaring physics based questions only furthers the cause of the terrorists.

[utopiomania]

Of course I don't blindingly trust in what the government, or authorites say, but in this case, I do trust in what your government said about this incident.

'Independent' investigations as you call it often isn't independent at all, especially if published on YouTube.

One thing that disturbs me about your post is that I think it is about denial. The fact that muslim terrorists did this to you is too hurtful, so you dream up other explanations?

Is that why all these stupid conspiracy theories about the 9/11 event is so popular??

Well, my advice is that decisions should be based on cold, hard facts, not fiction.