Interesting IRC Conversation about PureBasic

[Inner]

I thought I'd open this for discussion, since some valid points where made, and maybe we / as users / can help Fred make PureBasic even better, and make his life easier.
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(GBeebe) Because Linux version of PB isn't capable of looping sound files... I need to know if there is a way to find out if a sound is still playing. Got any ideas?
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(Inner) GBeeb1: yeah subvert the pb commands and use the OS.
(GBeeb1) I don't quite know what that means
(GBeeb1) "subvert the pb commands"
(Inner) to do away with, undermine, not use.
(GBeeb1) gotcha
(GBeeb1) and use something built in to the os to play sounds?
(Inner) yup
(Inner) requires a lot of work, and may mean you'd need to write a /proper/ lib
(GBeeb1) I could possibly check to see if mplayer is installed and use it... dunno how i'd terminate the playing when i want it to stop.
(Inner) if your detecting a ruther pissed off person, your imagination isn't fooling you.
* kryme hrmms.
(GBeeb1) An easier way is to probably to just know the size (in min) of the sound, and force it to play again after the time has lapsed.
(kryme) inner, I'm sorry you're pissed off.
(GBeeb1) I'm not... didn't think he was
(Inner) kryme: I used the wrong word, fustrated would have been better
(GBeeb1) frustrated with my question?
(kryme) FustratUntitled 1ed with PureBasic?
* Inner is going to re-write all those blasted libs one day
(Inner) GBeeb1: no
(GBeeb1) k
(Inner) kryme: yes, I posted 3 bugs, 2 critical and not a word from fred or anyone at all
(kryme) Ah. Sorry to hear that.
(GBeeb1) In the wish list at the forum?
(Inner) GBeeb1: no, 'Bug Report'
(GBeeb1) oh,
(Inner) any orginised developer would be using a cvs tree for the libs, so that quick bug fixes where available at a moments notice, simple stuppid bugs would be out of the way in hours if not a couple of days, libs would have _version_ numbers so you knew if your libs where out of date and you could pull another set off of the cvs tree..
(GBeeb1) True, do they even acknowledge fixes to libs that other ppl write?
(Inner) GBeeb1: the libs are closed source, no one else can fix them
(Inner) GBeeb1: which is another point to, they should be all open source so that bugs can be fixed by others, submitted to a team and tested, and introduced into the source tree
(Inner) (/ but there is no team /)
(Inner) I'd be willing to head such a team of individuals that wanted to be apart of such a venture, but it requires fred make changes
(GBeeb1) I agree that the libs should be open source. He doesn't have to make the compiler open source (i'm sure) in order to accomplish that. If it were open source there wouldn't really need to be a "team" just 1 or 2 ppl to check posted fixes/updates to the libs.
(Inner) I agree, the draw back of that is, that people could steal the lib code for there own use
(Inner) in /other/ compilers
(GBeeb1) hmm, but you can d/l other libs form others that work in PB, right?
(GBeeb1) 3rd party libs?
(Inner) however if you /have/ to be a registered use to obtain the source in the first place, it should be too much of an issuse
(Inner) GBeeb1: yeah of course
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(Inner) everything as it stands right now would appear exactally the same, apart from more stable libs
(Inner) which means a more stable compiler
(Inner) as the domino falls, a better product
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(Inner) that same team that handles the lib checking could also filter bug reports so that fred only gets the ones that are valid bugs, that can't be fixed by the lib team, because of lack of experance with the works of pb
(GBeeb1) i agree
(Inner) really I have PB best interests at heart here, I'm not knock PB at all.
(GBeeb1) I wouldn't be surprised to see that a bunch of replacement libs for PB already existed out there.
(GBeeb1) I think it's the most promissing cross platform BASIC out there
(Inner) it is
(Inner) I only want to make it better, more stable.
(GBeeb1) With any luck Fred might catch word of your idea and make it happen.
(Inner) I would never have installed linux without purebasic
(GBeeb1) Wow. that's a statment.
(Inner) I think he is hiding from me
(GBeeb1) you've been on his back?
(GBeeb1) does he frequent this room?
(Inner) indeed it is quite a statement it's purebasic that is teaching me about linux as an OS
(Inner) he does, he has just been very quite the last couple of days
(kryme) Are you liking Linux?
(Inner) yes very much
(GBeeb1) to be truthfull, i've only had linux for 2 weeks.
(Inner) I've had linux for 4
(GBeeb1) Fedora Core 2
(kryme) Welcome to our world.
(Inner)
(Inner) infact I almost lost my dinner when I was forced to go into windows the other day
* kryme laughs.
(GBeeb1) really?
(Inner) yes really.
(kryme) Inner, 4 weeks has made you a convert?
(kryme) What distro are you using?
(Inner) mandrake 10.0
(GBeeb1) i mainly use WinXp, but i felt i had to install linux 'cause i was "being drug" to a LUG in Ohio. I figured i'd better know what others were talking about.
* kryme laughs.
(kryme) You said you would come. I never forced you.
(Inner) lol
(GBeeb1) I decided to purchase PB (after I found it) because there were others there who were saying how difficult it was to make a "good" game.
(GBeeb1) Next year, i'll prove them wrong.
(Inner) good on you
(GBeeb1) And we took my car.
(Inner) with the introduction of MacOS to the 3 already supported, Fred -must- do something about having a team to deal with certain things or he is going to get bogged.
(GBeeb1) I hope he's doing this full time and not just as a hobby type thing.
(Inner) he has a job if that is what you mean, as well as coding pb
(Inner) my biggest fear as that, all of this work will be too much for 1 man
(GBeeb1) it'd be too much for me
(Inner) I absolutely /hate/ reporting bugs to him, because I know it's another bit of paper in his inbox of hundreds of others that he has to look at.
(GBeeb1) ofcourse i don't know ASM nor how to compile code.
(Inner) but a bug is a bug, and it must be reported
(Inner) sometimes, I get them wrong and it's my own code.
(Inner) but that's natural
(GBeeb1) I'm sure there are a hand full of qualified ppl out there who would love to work on it. Perhaps he being selfish and not wanting to let his baby go.
(kryme) And I'm sure the PureBasic userbase, as well as Fred, appreciates it.
(Inner) GBeeb1: note sure it's selfishness, pride is probably more like it
(GBeeb1) yea
(GBeeb1) I'd be willing to even pay more for PB if it had that kind of support.
(Inner) I was building a bug reporting tools for another language that, the developer said I was going to be apart of but hasn't lived up to his words. there is no reason I couldn't develop this tool for purebasic.
(Inner) GBeeb1: that's the thing, I don't mind inface I'm encorraged by heading a team that helps for nothing, free.
(kryme) Not satisfied with the bug reporting tools already available?
(Inner) didn't think they existed.
(Inner) well at least a cross platform one
(GBeeb1) Kryme worked on one
(Inner) great
(kryme) Hrmm. ARe you talking about one just on the web, or one to run on the local machine?
(GBeeb1) the bug wizard thinggy.
(Inner) I'm talking about one, that can send emails to an email address, and update a database of bugs.. which are marked off fixed, or broken
(kryme) Ah.
(Inner) with a level of priority
(kryme) I'm on the BUGS team, which uses PHP and MySQL. It's server side.
(Inner) I think I've seen it
(kryme) The development stopped for a time, but we're beginning active development again.
(kryme) Well, I'm not really a developer. I did docs, and provided server space.
(kryme) I would never be a big part of the project. Don't have the knowledge.
(Inner) all it takes is this, bug is reported, emailed to the bug testing team, the team assign it an id #12311 for example, test to see it is a bug, deside what level of priority it is, critical / major / minor / cosmetic , and either at that stage fix the bug in the lib, re-release the newly fixed lib, or pass it on to Fred it fix, once all is done the bug is marked [fixed]
(GBeeb1) and an innerface for others to see the progress on it: Validating, Fixing, Waiting to be fixed, Ignoring, etc.
(Inner) yup
(Inner) that would be the web interface
(Inner) you'd have something like a list, Bug #12311 (Submitted by GBeeb1) (Broken FreeGadget()) OS (Linux) Freeing of x,y,z has failed.
(Inner) [CTRICAL (or whatever)] Bug #12311 (Submitted by GBeeb1) (Broken FreeGadget()) OS (Linux) Freeing of x,y,z has failed.
(GBeeb1) so the problem is that Fred either doesn't trust anyone with the sources, or only wants to "Iron Man" it.
(Inner) 3 things, actually what you said, or he is scared about what people might find in his source
(GBeeb1) ! ? !
(Inner) GTK for example is a prime example of why it needs to be open sourced, because of license problems with a commercial app he cannot for example use any other wedget library
(GBeeb1) so you think he's illegally closing the source?
(Inner) GBeeb1: well take Mark Siblys Amiga Blitz Basic source code, when it finally did hit the light of day in the open source arena, it was a HUGE MESS!!
(Inner) GBeeb1: NO!, he is using a widget library that allows him to do what he is doing
(GBeeb1) k
(Inner) But!, however other widget librarys that are better, cannot be used right now because of that closed sourceness
(GBeeb1) i don't use widgets (yet) i'm not in that area of programming.
(GBeeb1) gotcha.
(Inner) which is why all your PB apps look so weird under linux
(GBeeb1) because i don't use widgets?
(GBeeb1) i'm not using window type interfaces.
(Inner) no, because he can't use things like the KDE interface.
(GBeeb1) he "can't" or doesn't choose to.
(kryme) So, because it's closed source it's not allowed to use any open source libraries?
(Inner) can't... using such a library in it's current state with KDE would be a license voilation
(Inner) kryme: any open source library that has a license that explisitly states anything based on it must be open source
(GBeeb1) that's gay, what if i were to make an open source lib for it to include.
(kryme) Since when have closed source applications not been allowed to use open source libs?
(Inner) valid point there kryme
(GBeeb1) but then again, because of that, our PB apps and such would always have to be open source as well.
(Inner) yes
(Inner) which is why, Fred choose the path he did, which was valid at the time
(kryme) No.
(kryme) That's incorrect.
(Inner) no?
(Inner) okay, please explain, I'm all for learning
(GBeeb1) the only reason why i got it was so that i could start making money on the linux side.
(kryme) Closed source can use open source libraries.
(GBeeb1) but if the libs state that you can't use them for close source programs .....
(GBeeb1) i think that's what Inner was saying about the KDE stuff
(Inner) GBeeb1: most open source is based on the GPL license
(GBeeb1) i'll have to read that some day. it has it's own site right?
(GBeeb1) gpl.org or something.
(kryme) http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
(kryme) Also, worth checking out is the MPL.
(GBeeb1) thanks
(GBeeb1) which means?
(kryme) Mozilla Public License
(kryme) Another open source license.
(Inner) there are heaps of them
(Inner) If I am incorrect the I'm sorry, I was basing it on what fred had already told me
(Inner) that he can't link non-gpl code with gpl based libraries
(kryme) I had always understood that to be incorrect, but right now I'm doing some reading.
(Inner) cool
(kryme) Does 'linking' just refer to the libraries externally?
(Inner) I think so
(GBeeb1) linking would be like using them as a dll, where including them would be taking calls/procedures from them and having them physically in the program.
(GBeeb1) maybe Including isn't the work i'm looking form
(GBeeb1) *for
(Inner) maybe, but it fits
(Inner) what should be happening in PB isn't.. it should be that you just simply include what C/C++ users use, and you have the command set, there is no real reason why you should have to make a .lib at all really, but it is :/
(GBeeb1) so, how is PB helpling you learn Linux?
(Inner) by dumming down everything so I can access things, like I didn't know what proc was until I got pb to display the contents of all the files
(Inner) then of course I learned cat
(GBeeb1) cat?
(Inner) cat its term command
(Inner) cat - concatenate files and print on the standard output
(GBeeb1) i see now
(Inner) there is also uname as well
(GBeeb1) hmm
(Inner) uname - print system information
(kryme) Damn. Inner, you were right. GPL doesn't allow linking, LGPL allows linking.
(Inner) wish I wasn't
(kryme) Not the way I've understood it, but oh well.
(GBeeb1) so the "Team" should make 2 versions GPL compatible and non linkable versions.
(Inner) they don't need to, Fred needs to open source the .lib he is using to link with the GPL software then he cannot be nailed
(GBeeb1) he IS linking to GPL stuff then?
(Inner) not as far as I know
(GBeeb1) or open source it so it could be possible?
(Inner) GTK I think is LGPL so he can link with that all he likes
(Inner) KDE is GPL which means he cannot without open sourcing the code he using to link with it
(GBeeb1) can't he just have one lib that does that and have that lib the only thing "open"?
(Inner) salution: open source the .lib he using to link with KDE, problem fixed
(GBeeb1) gotcah
(GBeeb1) k... well, i've learned more than i planned on PB today...
(Inner) lol
(Inner) always something to learn
(GBeeb1) I've gotta go, but i'll be back. I'll probably be a fixture after a while.
(GBeeb1) Later Inner
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(kryme) And once I let GBeebe out of the building, I'm going home.
(kryme) Later Inner.
--- kryme is now known as kryme|away
(Inner) later kryme|away
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[Max.²]

I - personally - do not like the recurring conversations/suggestion how Fred should handle development of PureBasic. I simply accept that there is either Fred's way or no way.

Do not forget that Fred doesn't do the PB development for a living, but as a pet project - I assume to try out stuff and learn, and nothing is better in such a case than to focus on one project.

Do not misunderstand, suggestions are fine. But IMO they need to fit to Fred's plans & intentions at least a bit and should not change his agenda.

[Inner]

Fred isn't dealing with 1 project, but 4 projects more or less concurrently, that's just for the compiler, 63 Libraries / 5 of which are linux only, then you have to take into account that each of those 4 platforms, has it's own unique way of being programmed for, sooner or later he is going to get bogged, we was just point out in the chat above a way to do things to free him up a bit, to concentrate on his work.

I do agree that it's Freds work his say so, but every developer now and then needs a helpping hand, or given a diferent prespective on ways to do things, if that never happend we'd all be using MS-Windows.

[aaron]

All that IRC conversation needed was a little cheese to go with all the whining.... Yeesh.

For the guys who think that they can do a better job, why not contribute to one of the many open source basics out there already? I'm sure that they would appreciate a few new enthusiastic developers.

PureBasic got to where it is today because of the way the it is developed. Just take a look at sourceforce for all the "open source" projects that have crashed and burned. A strong developer working by himself is sometimes the right way to go. Team programming is not always the best model, and open source is not the answer for PureBasic.

[Max.²]

Fred isn't dealing with 1 project, but 4 projects more or less concurrently, that's just for the compiler, 63 Libraries / 5 of which are linux only, then you have to take into account that each of those 4 platforms, has it's own unique way of being programmed for, sooner or later he is going to get bogged, we was just point out in the chat above a way to do things to free him up a bit, to concentrate on his work.

That is exactly where we differ in our opinions. I am quite sure it is 1 project/interest for Fred: Developing a compiler for several platforms. AFAIK it all started on the Amiga. With the growing interest, the # of platforms were growing, with the Mac being the latest.

Of course everything I say is assumption, but hey, so is what you say. Anyway, my last assumption for this thread:

If Fred's spare time programming wouldn't revolve solely about his personal interest in developing compilers for various platforms, we wouldn't have PureBasic at all. If once he looses the interest in it, he will also have lost his interest in the PB/Win.

[Inner]

All that IRC conversation needed was a little cheese to go with all the whining.... Yeesh.

whining? really? since when has wanting to make something better been whining.

For the guys who think that they can do a better job, why not contribute to one of the many open source basics out there already? I'm sure that they would appreciate a few new enthusiastic developers.

I'm not enthusiastic about other compilers, and I was not supporting open sourcing the compiler/ide or any other fundermental part or what I consider to be the core of how pb functions, we was sudjesting it would better support people for the libraries to be open sourced, from your post count your relitively new, there in your C:\Program Files\PureBasic\PureLibraries folder.

That is exactly where we differ in our opinions. I am quite sure it is 1 project/interest for Fred: Developing a compiler for several platforms. AFAIK it all started on the Amiga. With the growing interest, the # of platforms were growing, with the Mac being the latest.

That's okay your allowed to differ in your opinion, still doesn't change the fact, that you have diferent binary distrobutions of PB, 1 for amiga, 1 for linux, 1 for mac & lastly one for windows, which at last count = 4

[freak]

Somehow i have a deja vue feeling here...

I suggest you read those points carefully, because i'm not going to argue
about them over and over.

#1
Why do you rant about your linux bugs not being fixed in 3 days?
(look at your post dates, they are just 3 days old!)

We are fixing windows bugs right now. Linux fixing will follow shortly.
Learn a little paitance.. one thing at a time.


#2
There IS a team.
For quite a while now there have been people helping out.
Although fred still does the biggest part himself, i am doing a lot of stuff too,
and there is Andre who does a great job on the german/english docs. And
Bericko also contributed much, although unfortunately he doesn't have the
time anymore.

The point is: How did this team get assembled? We all know fred quite well,
and we work well togeher. The coding style and the view on thngs match.
That is a very important factor. I don't think it would work that well with
just any person in th world. These things must match, or all you'll do in your
*team* is argue.

#3
Open source wouldn't make things better the way you say.
There is even proof for that. The PureBasic IDE was released for 2 reasons.
1) As a proof-of-concept, to show a big PB sourcecode is easily possible.
2) So people could make contributions to it. I remember some people saying
"i the IDE were open source, i would make much improvements to it an contribute them"
Hum, i haven't seen much of those yet, and the IDE is open source for quite a while now.

People always have a big mouth, but if we really were to make it open-source
right now, i don't think many people would seariously work on it IN THE LONG RUN
(of course for now, some would)

Are you ready to commit ALL your freetime to such a project over then next years??
(Fred and i don't do much other stuff than PB)
So name the people you would have in your *bugtest team* or in your *development team*


#4
If PB really were open source, i wouldn't work on it anymore, that's for sure.
Here is why:

Remember all the people ranting here anytime anything gets changes?
Remember all those endless angry discussions with everybody wanthing
things done a different way??

... now imagine each of those had access to the source...

Hell no, i'm outta there 8O

So far we have kept PB a clean language. Without bloat, without unneccesary
old features, without 1000 ways to do the same thing.
Sometimes to acheave this there were breaks needed.
If you make it open source, all this goes right out of the window.


#5
What's that GPL talk. Do you really understand that licence and what you are talking about?
I sure don't fully understand it, but this i know:

By including GPL'ed code in PB libraries, you don't only force the libraries
to be open source, but also everybody who writes a program with them
has to make his code open.
People might want to make money with PB.. part of that is mostly NOT to make once source public.

btw, you can access any GPL'ed library from PB as easy as from any
other language.. nobody tells you not to use them.



Timo

[Kale]

I agree strongly with everything Timo (Freak) has just said!

[Moonshine]

As do I. Well said Timo.

[blueznl]

it's fred's show
he calls the shots

and we must be somehow somewhat happy with that otherwise we wouldn't have bought purebasic

[PB]

> Team programming is not always the best model

Agreed. Too many cooks spoil the broth. PureBasic is perfect the way it is.

[Inner]

freak:

#1 : I was not complaining about them not being fixed in 3 days, I was fustrated with the fact that they had not yet been seen by Fred in 3 days, I couldn't careless if it took 6 weeks or a year to fix, as long as it's seen, and to make sure there seen one needs a confermation that they've been noticed by Fred, that is all I was worried about.

#2 : Agreed, and I've known about this teams existants, except the 'team' is geared to application development, as least from my current prespective, I was sudjesting a team that delt with bug reports, filting out those that are bogus, from those that are real, and perhaps fixing the bugs in the libs tree, and updating a type of cvs when they had, while I agree with team structure view on it working well, sometimes it's good to have an argument, because sometimes, jems of ideas come from it, never the less this was an /idea/ not change it or else, I quite happy with the way things are currently, I was just putting forth a diferent way to do things.

#3 : Yes, I admit there is indeed pros and cons to both sides, but as I said this wasn't a change or else thing, it was just an idea I thought I'd float around, commitmenting /all/ my free time to purebasic right now, so what diferents would it make?, interestingly, this is the very reason why I posted this to see who would want to be apart of it, accept I got flamed however I would probably need 1 form each platform supported, with demonstated skill in programming.

#4 : This came up before, I'm only sudjesting the libs tree be open source not the entire devkit compiler and all, infact I would strongly protest the compiler or any other executable binary for that matter being open sourced. Having said that you do have a valid point there, with the constant whining aboat changes, perfect example is this thread, I just brought up for sudjestion and look what it coursed, I didn't intend or was even prepared for, some of the comments that have been made, I was antisapating a warmer reply than I got.

#5 : Yes and I'm none to impressed with that in this instants, it means because of the libs being closed source, Fred cannot use any GPL libraries what so ever. imagine what would happen if GTK desided to change there license from LGPL to GPL. not likely to happen but never the less.

blueznl:
Perfectly happy with it just thought I'd mention that there are diferent ways to meet the same end.