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 Post subject: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:28 am 
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https://www.anandtech.com/show/12894/apple-deprecates-opengl-across-all-oses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API)

Hello folks!

I am not very interested in that kind of "low level" APIs; but will that affect PureBasic?

The only thing I see here is that Apple is making devloper's life harder.
Maybe it's necessary due to more power with a new API?

The first thing I was looking for was "Metal API for windows"...

Why do they build such thing without talking each other, I mean Apple<->Microsoft<->Linux?


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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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All the crossplatform OpenGL-based libraries maintainers that are around will be so happy.

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I am not very interested in that kind of "low level" APIs; but will that affect PureBasic?


AFAIK PureBasic uses OpenGL on Linux and OSX for its 2D graphic (sprites etc).

Also the semi-wrapped OGRE uses OpenGL on OSX, but support for Metal will be added by its developers.

Then there is the OpenGL gadget, which I imagine will be simply no longer available on OSX, if/when Apple will actually remove OpenGL from the OS (but maybe it will never happen, who knows).

Apple wrote:
"Apps built using OpenGL and OpenCL will continue to run in macOS 10.14, but these legacy technologies are deprecated in macOS 10.14. Games and graphics-intensive apps that use OpenGL should now adopt Metal. Similarly, apps that use OpenCL for computational tasks should now adopt Metal and Metal Performance Shaders."


Quote:
Maybe it's necessary due to more power with a new API?


I wouldn't say necessary, Apple's OpenGL always sucked compared to other implementations, but that's not an OpenGL fault, just Apple's.
Metal is a better performer, but like Vulkan it's also a lot simpler to since it moves a lot of complexity up from the driver to the software using it, not exactly a great accomplishment.
Like ASM you have finer control = greater efficiency, but a lot more work to do yourself (try to render a triangle on Vulkan).

Quote:
The first thing I was looking for was "Metal API for windows"..


Metal is proprietary of Apple, but why anyone would like to adopt it anyway ? It's like Direct/X on Windows. It stays there.

Thinking they could have adopted Vulkan instead would have been expecting too much from Apple, but Vulkan is coming to OSX anyway implemented on top of Metal, so this would probably mitigate the problems they are always causing.

Carbon first, now OpenGL. OpenGL is a much bigger deal obviously, but it's not surprising. The writing was on the wall.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:54 pm 
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HanPBF wrote:
Why do they build such thing without talking each other, I mean Apple<->Microsoft<->Linux?
Linux? You mean Khronos? Khronos is the only independent group creating graphics standards like OpenGL or OpenCL. It isn't dependent of any OS or manufacturer, however the manufacturers should implement these standards correctly and completely. IMHO these standards should be supported instead of Metal.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:30 pm 
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I am sceptic about the cross platform idea anyway.

But: great info :D

Thanks a lot!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Vulkan ?

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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:40 pm 
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HanPBF wrote:
I am sceptic about the cross platform idea anyway.
I am sceptic about all the platform dependent frameworks. I mean look at UIKit: there is no damn way to get key down/release events other than for predefined shortcuts. This is just crap and non-standard. Yeah lets do something to make porting more difficult for everyone. They never think about usability for developers. That is the reason why everyone switches to web programming: HTML/JavaScript/CSS is more standardized than all other frameworks combined although HTML rendering results in 100 different outputs in 100 different browsers.

wilbert wrote:
Vulkan ?
Yeah! They forgot to deprecate that, lets use this.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Quote:
I am sceptic about all the platform dependent frameworks.

In my opinion, we have platforms for a reason.
Apple is more "beautiful", Microsoft is more "office" and Linux is more "free".
But isn't that true for programming languages, file systems, etc.?

There's no solution to that; so
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That is the reason why everyone switches to web programming


Annoying...


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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:42 pm 
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HanPBF wrote:
Quote:
I am sceptic about all the platform dependent frameworks.

In my opinion, we have platforms for a reason.
Apple is more "beautiful", Microsoft is more "office" and Linux is more "free".
Still, there are paradigms which should be covered by all of them, but out of the sudden a wall appears in front of you (changing a paradigma which had been successfully proven) and you cannot continue the work with the effort you planned and you have to create workarounds. This means more and more non conformance costs and out of the sudden you've doubled your costs.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:55 pm 
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It's always a good news when you start developing stuff with OpenGL and you read this.

I like OpenGL because it's written in C instead of C++ so it's readily available in PureBasic. Vulkan is the most recent graphic API but you need an OpenGL 4.6 capable graphic card to use it.

Maybe Fred should find a way to solve the C++ OOP libraies mangling so we can use any libraries as easy as the C libraries.

Anyway I'm on Linux for now and probably for many years to come so ...

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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:23 pm 
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StarBootics wrote:
Maybe Fred should find a way to solve the C++ OOP libraies mangling so we can use any libraries as easy as the C libraries.


It can't be done, name mangling it's not standard, every compiler does it its way, C++ does not even specify name mangling as part of the implementation standards.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:51 pm 
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StarBootics wrote:
I like OpenGL because it's written in C instead of C++ so it's readily available in PureBasic. Vulkan is the most recent graphic API but you need an OpenGL 4.6 capable graphic card to use it.

Maybe Fred should find a way to solve the C++ OOP libraies mangling so we can use any libraries as easy as the C libraries.
Vulkan is C as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Trond wrote:
Vulkan is C as well.


I know but my computer is 9 years old so I'm stuck with OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 but I'm progressing in my programming.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple deprecates OpenGL
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:50 pm 
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We're very close to the point where an OS is little more than a browser launcher, having a non-standard graphics API will probably just mean browsers run less well on your OS.


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