Windows for ARM ... PB for ARM ?

[Ramihyn_]

Like I have said, asking about WinRT is irrelevant since PB will not be able to create Mero apps!

I have seen you claim that repeatedly, but you never gave a reason beside pointing at presentation videos and charts now.

Did you look at the image I inserted above?

I refered to the same chart some postings before you in this thread.

[Ramihyn_]

It seems that Embarcadero plans to support creating Windows 8 Metro apps in Delphi. They have it on their roadmap and the Embarcadero R&D engineer Thom Gerdes already did a Delphi "hello world" Metro native app here: https://plus.google.com/101466385048851 ... 6z7Pk9Hipo

Another attempt at a real native WinRT C++ app: http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/iangblog/2 ... tive-winrt
native C++ WinRT "Hello world": http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/iangblog/2 ... nheritance

Documentation for for Metro style apps (includes WinRT): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 11361.aspx

Api's for WinRT: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 11369.aspx
This includes documentation which subset of Win32 and COM can be used for Metro style apps

[Kuron]

I have seen you claim that repeatedly, but you never gave a reason beside pointing at presentation videos and charts now.

I have not only given you the reasons, I have backed it up with the official sources. Microsoft is the company behind Windows, including Windows 8. Microsoft are very knowledgeable on Windows 8. Microsoft put on the Build conference for developers and to help get them up to speed on the changes with Windows 8.

The video (and the graphics) I linked to were produced by Microsoft. Nobody has hacked their servers and uploaded fraudulent videos in an effort to fool you. The information in that video I linked to is correct and you can prove it to yourself if you don't believe what Microsoft has said. Windows 8 actually exists, you can legally download it right now and start using it and work on getting your software compatible with it. With the exception of cosmetic changed and minor changes in functionality, Windows 8 as it exits now, is pretty much what we will be getting when it is released in late 2012. MS has made Windows 8 available so developers can make sure their programs work with Windows 8 when it is released.

If you want to write Metro apps (for Windows 8 ARM or Windows 8 PC), there is nothing stopping you from doing it now. You have everything you need available to you.

I refered to the same chart some postings before you in this thread.

Then why are you continuing with your nonsense when you know you are wrong? Have you actually looked at the chart and read it? Have you watched the video I posted? What part of Metro apps can only be written in HTML5, JavaScript or .NET don't you understand?

[Kuron]

Documentation for for Metro style apps (includes WinRT): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 11361.aspx

From the link your provided, under What are Metro style apps?: "You can create your app in the languages you're most comfortable with: JavaScript with HTML5 and CSS3, or C++/C#/VB with XAML." Isn't this exactly what I have been saying?

Api's for WinRT: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 11369.aspx
This includes documentation which subset of Win32 and COM can be used for Metro style apps

But the link you provided doesn't say that, does it? If you look under Win32 and COM for Metro style apps it says: "Metro style apps can use a subset of the Win32 and COM API. This subset of APIs was chosen to support key scenarios for Metro style apps that were not already covered by the Windows Runtime, HTML/CSS, or other supported languages or standards. The Windows App Certification Kit ensures that your app uses only this subset of the Win32 and COM API."

This describes a subset of Win32 and COM API being used by Metro apps, not being used for metro apps. In the last sentence, it clearly says your Metro app will only be able to use this special subset of Win32 and COM API. Have you actually looked at what is in this subset? It is just a small collection of APIs to complement WinRT.

[IdeasVacuum]

Metro apps can only be written in HTML5, JavaScript or .NET

According to the chart posted by you Kuron, Metro Apps can be coded in C. That surely opens the WinRT API door for PB, as it probably does in a similar way for Delphi.

The over-riding question though is - do we want to write Metro apps? That is decided by how we expect the market to react to this new OS. I think the market will be split - consumers who are not 'PC Experts' may well find Metro attractive for their purposes, whereas business desktop PC users may dismiss it as impractical for constant 9 to 5 use (not to mention the cost of replacing £$£$ of existing apps). I predict that if Metro is a success, it will be on tablets. So, that's a hardware and a software change for most PC Users. Will not happen overnight, particularly given the current economic climate.

[Kuron]

This thread is asking for ARM support which would be very good as it would allow mobile platforms to be supported. Android and iOS would be ideal targets. Of course with iOS, you won't be able to compile from PB for iOS. The code would have to be exported and then compiled with Apple's official tools which is what GLBasic, monkey and many other languages do.


For Windows 8, this would be very different as Microsoft has locked down the system. This is the first time MS has ever been able to do this because MS does not even come close to having a monopoly in the tablet/mobile markets. Ie, you can't abuse a non-existent monopoly. MS can now be strong-armed like Apple (who does not have a monopoly in anything). The way we are used to developing for Windows no longer applies unless you are developing desktop apps (which are the type of programs we have developed for Windows up until now).

Microsoft is basically copying Apple's methods although making it more extreme because they will also be pushing this onto the desktop version of Windows 8 and the same rules for the ARM version of Windows 8 will apply to Metro apps on the desktop version of Windows 8. While Windows 8 will be available on two platforms (PC (X86 & x64) and ARM), Metro itself is best thought of as its own platform which runs on Windows 8 (any processor).

Microsoft has repeatedly said Metro apps (whether for ARM or desktop) can only be written with HTML5, JavaScript or .NET (C++/C#/VB). Delphi, C++ Builder and several other languages are .NET capable and should theoretically be able to be used if Microsoft allows it. The problem is for languages like PB that are not .NET capable. As I have said before, for PB to be able to create Metro Apps (ARM or desktop), it would have to work like monkey (or even GLBasic) does and quit compiling and move to translating the code from one language to another so the exported code could be compiled with allowed tools.

Microsoft has made it very clear they will be enforcing the restrictions on what languages can be used for Metro apps. They literally have no choice if they are going to keep the OS secure. Metro apps will only be able to be distributed via Microsoft's new app store. For your Metro app to qualify and be accepted into the new store, it must pass certification. Like Apple, Microsoft will be rejecting anything that does not play by the rules. Developers simply will not be allowed to do things half-assed like many developers still do with Windows inspite of Microsoft's efforts to stop it. For Metro apps, it is simple. You either do it the way Microsoft wants it or it is not allowed on the Metro platform.

There are only two exception that allow side-loading. Microsoft has made allowances for Enterprise clients and developers. If you have ever looked at Microsoft's enterprise licensing, you will know that none of us here have that kind of money or qualify for this. Even for enterprise clients, the exception seems to be for Metro apps created for inhouse use, not for resale to the general public. For Developers, they will be able to side-load strictly for testing purposes, not for distribution or resale purposes.

Although I detest Metro, it really is well thought out. "Metro-style apps can still access some parts of the Win32 API, COM, and .NET Framework, the access is limited. You cannot work around the WinRT file access limitations by using the classes in System.IO (like the File object) — they are totally gone. " Microsoft has finally learned a few things from Apple about security. Even if it is just a platform within the OS, Metro is a huge step for MS in the right direction.

If Microsoft can pull off getting Windows 8 ARM laptops/netbooks to market by June of 2013 like is now being said, MS will not only beat Apple (Apple can't move OS X to ARM until ARM moves to 64-bit), but may have finally solved the problem for millions of Windows users who have had such problems with security on their Windows laptops over the years. The only issue will be whether or not an ARM based laptop/netbook will be Metro only like the tablet counterpart will be. If the ARM tablets due out next year when Windows 8 debuts fail, we may not see very many ARM based laptops/netbooks hit the market due to the lack of interest and vendors cutting their losses.

Here are a couple of articles that explain things and make it easy to understand:

http://www.code-magazine.com/Article.as ... id=1112031
http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/0 ... t-clas.php


I encourage folks to download Windows 8 and install it. Also download the newest Windows SDK and try writing a metro app or two. If you can code a webpage, you can code a metro app with HTML5 & JavaScript. I would also encourage people to go watch all of the videos from the BUILD conference.

[Kuron]

According to the chart posted by you Kuron, Metro Apps can be coded in C. That surely opens the WinRT API door for PB, as it probably does in a similar way for Delphi.

This would be incorrect as PB does not support .NET Delphi is .NET capable, whether MS would allow non-MS .NET languages or not is a different story.

As to the graphic, MS provided that, but have never mentioned C again since then in what I have read. The wonderful thing about VC++ is it not only supports .NET, but you can use C syntax for some things. There are not many C variants that support .NET which is a requirement if you are using the XAML interface for Metro.

The over-riding question though is - do we want to write Metro apps? That is decided by how we expect the market to react to this new OS. I think the market will be split - consumers who are not 'PC Experts' may well find Metro attractive for their purposes, whereas business desktop PC users may dismiss it as impractical for constant 9 to 5 use (not to mention the cost of replacing £$£$ of existing apps). I predict that if Metro is a success, it will be on tablets. So, that's a hardware and a software change for most PC Users. Will not happen overnight, particularly given the current economic climate.

Personally, I think Windows 8 will be a failure for MS due to poor acceptance of the tablet version. MS just doesn't have the pull to make a dent in a market that is dominated by Apple, although I would LOVE to see Apple dethroned!

If, the industry can stick it out enough for the ARM laptops/netbooks to hit in 2013, I think MS has a chance of pulling it off, but IMHO for it to work they will have to allow ARM based desktop apps on the laptops/netbooks instead of just Metro apps. Given Microsoft's 10 year history of tablets, I don't see the new ARM tablets being successful.

Part of this will also depend on how well Apple continues to do. I expect history to repeat itself and for Apple to eventually implode again without Steve at the helm, however Apple is more than just a desktop company now and have been able to become an important part of culture for a whole new generation of people. They may be able to keep chugging along just fine.

Many years ago, MS detailed many plans for the future and the way things would be. Unfortunately, MS has stuck to most of those plans and implemented many of them with each new version of Windows. Metro's style is not unique to Windows. Apple's iOS has it, the largest Linux distribution moved to it some time ago. I have a bad feeling the brick interface will be around for a while.

[USCode]

...Personally, I think Windows 8 will be a failure for MS due to poor acceptance of the tablet version. MS just doesn't have the pull to make a dent in a market that is dominated by Apple, although I would LOVE to see Apple dethroned!

Windows 8 on tablets might potenitally appeal to 2 kinds of people:
- Those already familiar with Windows might feel more comfortable with a Windows OS, even with the different Metro interface experience.
- Many folks don't want to be pulled into the Apple ecosystem, which is required to really maximize the utility of their products.

[Ramihyn_]

Microsoft has repeatedly said Metro apps (whether for ARM or desktop) can only be written with HTML5, JavaScript or .NET (C++/C#/VB). Delphi, C++ Builder and several other languages are .NET capable and should theoretically be able to be used if Microsoft allows it.

You are half way there, but Delphi is a native code compiler and does not compile to .NET. Embarcadero's new Firemonkey (which offers Delphi and C++ development) also compiles to native CPU and GPU. Same for the native WinRT C++ example which i linked from Ian Griffiths. It even includes x86 disassembly for a WinRT method call used in his example.

Microsoft has made it very clear they will be enforcing the restrictions on what languages can be used for Metro apps.

We will see if Microsoft will actually try to enforce that by their control of the "metro app store" as "the only distribution point for metro apps to end users". But that is a totally different topic.

Personally i dont see much point in trying to enforce the language which "can be used". If they want to do it for "security reasons", they will just find out that malicious programmers will inject native or IL code into a genuine application and put that on Microsofts "metro app store". It might take them between 3 to 9 months to do that due to the platform being new, but so what? If their windows 8 tablet security concept depends on artificially limiting the allowed languages, then it already failed.

[Kuron]

You are half way there, but Delphi is a native code compiler and does not compile to .NET.

This is incorrect. Delphi was native only in the old days. When Delphi 8 was released in 2003 it was .NET only. Delphi 9 was .NET and native executables. Codegear bought it and literally destroyed the product and staggered the .NET and native EXE releases. Then Embarcadero bought the remains and moved .NET to Delphi Prism and have done all they can to destroy what CoderGear left.

Same for the native WinRT C++ example which i linked from Ian Griffiths. It even includes x86 disassembly for a WinRT method call used in his example.

Yes, people will always be able to hack things, but it is irrelevant since Metro apps are only allowed to be written with .NET or HTML5/JavaScript. The script kiddie mentality doesn't work very well for legitimate development.

We will see if Microsoft will actually try to enforce that by their control of the "metro app store" as "the only distribution point for metro apps to end users". But that is a totally different topic.

Actually it is the same topic, because in order for a Metro App to be able to be used by somebody it has to be created properly. If it isn't created properly, it will be rejected by Microsoft. Windows developers who want to create Metro apps are going to learn how to work under similar strict guidelines that iOS (and now OS X) developers have been doing for some time.

Personally i dont see much point in trying to enforce the language which "can be used".

They are not, it is very open. If you don't like .NET languages, you can use HTML5 and JavaScript. Metro app programming is open to those experienced writing web based apps or those using standard .NET based development tools. You can't get more coverage and choice than that. Indie language users are still welcome to write standard Windows desktop apps just as they always have.

Indie languages that are more advanced like monkey and GLBasic should be able to add support for Metro apps without any major issues. Traditional indie compilers are a dying breed. Code translation seems to be the future for indie languages, for better or worse.

If they want to do it for "security reasons", they will just find out that malicious programmers will inject native or IL code into a genuine application and put that on Microsofts "metro app store".

They said the same thing when Apple introduced the iOS store. Like, Apple, Microsoft will put every submitted app through a battery of tests and ensure it is safe before it is ever approved.

If their windows 8 tablet security concept depends on artificially limiting the allowed languages, then it already failed.

But this isn't true is it? Their security depends on tight control of the Metro platform (for lack of a better term) and the ARM OS itself. Apps can only run sandboxed, apps have to go through WinRT which has limited access to system APIs so nothing nefarious can be done, and many other things. They are doing it exactly the same way Apple has done it with iOS, which is a proven method. The only difference is that Microsoft is being less restrictive than Apple and allowing multiple languages to be used for development.

It is nice to see Microsoft finally taking the security of their OS seriously. One can only hope they clamp down on Windows (X86/x64) too. Native desktop apps should have to run sandboxed and should have limited access to the OS. Desktop apps should have to be preapproved by MS or a trusted vendor before they are allowed on the OS and should only be sold via an official channel. If you want freedom, use Linux. That is what Linux is there for.

[Ramihyn_]

This is incorrect.

Same for the native WinRT C++ example which i linked from Ian Griffiths. It even includes x86 disassembly for a WinRT method call used in his example.

Yes, people will always be able to hack things

Windows developers who want to create Metro apps are going to learn how to work under similar strict guidelines that iOS (and now OS X) developers have been doing for some time.

If they want to do it for "security reasons", they will just find out that malicious programmers will inject native or IL code into a genuine application and put that on Microsofts "metro app store".

They said the same thing when Apple introduced the iOS store. Like, Apple, Microsoft will put every submitted app through a battery of tests and ensure it is safe before it is ever approved.

It is nice to see Microsoft finally taking the security of their OS seriously. One can only hope they clamp down on Windows (X86/x64) too. Native desktop apps should have to run sandboxed and should have limited access to the OS. Desktop apps should have to be preapproved by MS or a trusted vendor before they are allowed on the OS and should only be sold via an official channel. If you want freedom, use Linux. That is what Linux is there for.

By now, i think you are just trolling.

[Kuron]

By now, i think you are just trolling.

The one trolling would be the one who is continually, and deliberately, posting misinformation that is easily proven false by the official info from MS. That would be you, not me.

Again, I encourage you to download Windows 8, download the latest version of the Windows SDK and try developing a Metro app for yourself. Educating yourself and actually having knowledge of what you are trying to discuss is a good thing.

[Kuron]

Windows 8 on tablets might potenitally appeal to 2 kinds of people:
- Those already familiar with Windows might feel more comfortable with a Windows OS, even with the different Metro interface experience.
- Many folks don't want to be pulled into the Apple ecosystem, which is required to really maximize the utility of their products.

I agree with you. Nothing would make me happier than to see MS actually pull this off. Unfortunately, I just can't shake the sinking feeling that MS is too late to the game, yet again. I am hoping we don't see a repeat of recent failures like Windows Phone 7, Zune and the previous mobile phone and tablet attempts. Apple and Android need some competition in the tablet market.

[Tenaja]

MS just doesn't have the pull to make a dent in a market that is dominated by Apple, although I would LOVE to see Apple dethroned!

How do you define dethroned? Apple has already lost their #1 position for smartphone OS. It will not take long for the android tablet makers to catch up with iPad.

Asus is currently preselling (shipping in less than 2 weeks) the Transformer Prime--an Android tablet with a Quad-Core ARM 1.3/1.4 GHz (depending upon core activity). How long do you think those single and dual core dogs will last with quad core tabs, and (as I mentioned previously) 2GHz Arms coming soon? If Apple doesn't give the iPad 3 some serious mojo, it's going to follow the iPhone into that "previously a leader" category.

[IdeasVacuum]

Unfortunately, I just can't shake the sinking feeling that MS is too late to the game, yet again.

Yeah and it's not just that - it's also because Win8 Metro is just another 'me too' -the lack of real innovation is a potential killer - MS really needed to conjure-up something that was so much better, it would be an irresistible buy. I can't see why they have not realised this, given that a huge chunk of their customer base is still using XP.