Good years coming for experienced coders

[Blood]

Beware the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" applicant in your life. You will not be satisfied with his solution.

this is rubbish.

All the most skilled developers in the world can turn their hand to many technologies.

[Zach]

Not all people are better when being stressed and annoyed, e.g. me.

For real.. I took me 3 days and a pack of cigarettes to find out what was causing an infinite loop bug, once..

stupid variable scope


re: Jack of all Trades, Master of None..

I partially agree.. It's not rubbish to believe if you want a tool done extremely well in a specific language, with specific performance needs, that you might want to pick a guy who has known one languages for a decade or two and comes highly recommended, over another quite respectable coder who knows several.

Except in circumstances where you get a really intelligent, smart person. Someone working with a single language or two, is bound to have more intimate knowledge versus someone who can code in 10 languages, who may be reasonably competent, but lacks the deeper understanding of how to push a language to its limits. That same person may be just as awesome as the guy who only knows one or two languages - but you're just a corporate H.R manager - how do you tell the difference? It's a roll of the dice and usually the "specialist" can win out.

The surgeon analogy was dead on, imho.. You got brain problems? You go to a brain surgeon, not a general surgery resident.

[Thorium]

The surgeon analogy was dead on, imho.. You got brain problems? You go to a brain surgeon, not a general surgery resident.

Only on programing languages there isnt much of a big difference between them. The real experience of a coder is that he knows how to solve many problems, commons and uncommons. And thats independent from the language.

How to push a programing language to it's limits? As long as it's turring complete there is no difference in limits. For performance vs. development time a coder that knows different languages is at a big advantage, as he can pick what ever he needs. The language is just the tool, it's not the brain you operate on.

[skywalk]

Beware the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" applicant in your life. You will not be satisfied with his solution.

this is rubbish.

All the most skilled developers in the world can turn their hand to many technologies.

In the end, these are just opinions...and highly dependant on the situation.
If I have to choose the mission critical app developer for a project, and my a$$ is on the line, I will lean heavily toward an experienced coder in the exact tool the team is using. I don't care if the grand poobah of Java is interviewing, if we're creating embedded controller code?

The language is just the tool, it's not the brain you operate on.

Same here...we live in an age of specialization. How many analogies do you want?
Babe Ruth may have swung the best bat, but how was his golf game?
It's just a thinner 'bat' and smaller ball?
Isn't the algorithm almost the same?

[Thorium]

Same here...we live in an age of specialization. How many analogies do you want?
Babe Ruth may have swung the best bat, but how was his golf game?
It's just a thinner 'bat' and smaller ball?
Isn't the algorithm almost the same?

Give me matching analogies. ^^
The point is that the language isnt what you specialize in. You specialize in a field, be it integrated controllers, application development, game development. And you have many sub fields in there you can deeper specialize. You dont specialize in a language.

To give you another analogy: It's like a mechanist specialized himself in only using screwdriver. That makes no sense. He would spezialize in an actual field.

[skywalk]

To give you another analogy: It's like a mechanist specialized himself in only using screwdriver. That makes no sense. He would spezialize in an actual field.

I believe there is a Doctor that got quite a lot done with just a sonic screwdriver.

You have heard, "the Carpenter first attempts to solve a problem with a hammer?"
Think high level...This is in our nature. It is our 1st inclination to fall back on the familiar.
Muscle memory applies to our brains also.
Sure, given some setbacks and some failure, the problem solver(carpenter,plumber,programmer) must eventually rely on his analytical skills. But, the smart hiring manager knows this and tries to short circuit the initial delays of picking someone outside his everyday skill set.

[Zach]

I just don't buy this line of thinking. Are problem solving skills heavily dependent on the person? Yes. But you can't tell me that you believe someone who is coding in C++ for 10 years, could possibly be "only as experienced" / equal to some kid out of school who might know C++, and some Java, and some Visual basic maybe.

It is entirely possible to "specialized" in a language and "push it to its limits". The very nature of restricting yourself to working in a single language over a number of years will result in you building up all kinds of knowledge about how the language works, what its quirks are, what it is most efficient/inefficient at; I could go on really.

Having the benefit of working with a single language for years on end, will give you a great deal of foresight to how you approach a project, and how to eek out little bits of extra performance in your routines, that someone working with several languages, just doesn't always have the time or dedication to learn, when they can get by on "good enough". Short of being an exceptionally intelligent person from birth, or having virtually no social life, I can't see a situation where a heavily experienced person would not be the obvious choice vs. someone with only a few years in a few languages, especially if you need the tool done in a specific language, and need to be able to modify it later with other coders.

I could read books all day on the syntax of programming languages, and I could reach a point where I could read and write source code in them. But unless I have practical work experience in all of them, all the time, I could never compare to a veteran in any one particular language.

You can't trump real world experience against a person with a narrowly focused skillset. No matter how hard you try. That is what is actually meant by "Jack of All Trades and Master of None".

There is nothing inherently wrong with being multilingual, but there is plenty of work out there for "specialists" and that need will not go away. Discounting it as a viable career path comes down to personal decisions. One guy might get more job opportunities, but what a specialist lacks in quantity, he could easily make up for with quality, reflected in his paycheck.

[skywalk]

Zach, I don't see a disagreement?

To simplify...
How many instruments does a concert pianist or say Jimmy Page(Led Zeppelin) play?
1, 2 or 5 maybe?
How much money are you willing to pay to see Jimmy Page play piano or the concert pianist play guitar?

I am not saying either of these individuals could not become proficient in other instruments.
It's just a matter of time and study.
Things a hiring manager must consider to avoid someone "learning on the job".

[DarkDragon]

To give you another analogy: It's like a mechanist specialized himself in only using screwdriver. That makes no sense. He would spezialize in an actual field.

I believe there is a Doctor that got quite a lot done with just a sonic screwdriver.

So Thorium, Blood and me have won the discussion. Btw.: Nice analogy Thorium.

Ahh and @skywalk: don't compare science with art please.

How many instruments does a concert pianist or say Jimmy Page(Led Zeppelin) play?

[Thorium]

Having the benefit of working with a single language for years on end, will give you a great deal of foresight to how you approach a project, and how to eek out little bits of extra performance in your routines, that someone working with several languages, just doesn't always have the time or dedication to learn, when they can get by on "good enough". Short of being an exceptionally intelligent person from birth, or having virtually no social life, I can't see a situation where a heavily experienced person would not be the obvious choice vs. someone with only a few years in a few languages, especially if you need the tool done in a specific language, and need to be able to modify it later with other coders.

Programming languages are not that different that you can spend years to fully understand them. It's the programing logic, that takes a long time to understand and will build up your entire live. There is no limit to that.
And speaking about extra performance is a perfect example of why you should go with multiple languages. No matter how good you are at a high level language a skilled coder that knows ASM will beat your performance. He will just use ASM for the performance critical parts. Besides, understanding how the CPU works enables you many performance optimizations that just work with every language.

[skywalk]

To give you another analogy: It's like a mechanist specialized himself in only using screwdriver. That makes no sense. He would spezialize in an actual field.

I believe there is a Doctor that got quite a lot done with just a sonic screwdriver.

So Thorium, Blood and me have won the discussion. Btw.: Nice analogy Thorium.

Ahh and @skywalk: don't compare science with art please.

How many instruments does a concert pianist or say Jimmy Page(Led Zeppelin) play?

And why not? Are the comparisons(or humor) too difficult to grasp?

Look, all I am saying is humans are finite beings with finite resources(time,energy,intelligence,etc). To suggest that specialization is somehow different in the field of programming is a HUGE handwave, much like your "victory".

[ultralazor]

But... you won't get paid such salaries if you only know PB.

And why does the programming language matter.
LOL - I'll take any of van Gogh's finger paintings.

Crap in C++ or Java or PB all smells the same.

Better to change the topic - Good years are already here for good coders.

-Rant Off

Because people who have never written software in their entire lives, or talented vaporware authors, say you're not cool if your product isn't in C/C++ or assembler..

A quick glance at a program compiled with PB against one with GCC using same imports under a dissembler rationalizes things and puts the kiddies/procrastinators to rest...

I know kewl kids who have been developing C/C++ projects since the late 90s, I'm still waiting to see that software published. In the meantime I have games and utilities published under PB that are stable on all platforms..

On topic:I would get a developer job, but everyone wants .NET or DB devs now days, and 1 month deadlines for products that can launch companies with you as the only dev, making crap salary.. Also I don't have a masters and good citizen aesthetics..

I've seen people under independent contracting making thousands for web and app dev. Stuff most people could do in a day, but in a month for like 2k USD. I guess it's all in the BS you speak..

[alokdube]

it's all php ajax javascript in this era.
PB is a great too for stand alone windows.