Exactly right. Since they don't have any ability to control who uses a particular serial number, it's not DRM.Tipperton wrote:OK
My definition of DRM is anything that gives a vendor or publisher the ability to control who has access to the program or media.
Is it bad DRM?
Seems to be a lot of debate on the net whether SecuRom is a rootkit or not.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysi ... 97445.aspx seems to be detecting it as one and Securom says it's a false positive.
Sounds like something similar anyway
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysi ... 97445.aspx seems to be detecting it as one and Securom says it's a false positive.
Sounds like something similar anyway
Paul Dwyer
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
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berryoxide
- Enthusiast
- Posts: 136
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:04 pm
- Location: Debugger
I still think games should work in the fashion that they run directly from your CD. You don't put a serial number or do any activation, the game runs just as soon as you have the CD in your drive. As a form of copy protection, the discs could contain special sectors or barcode that the CD drive uses to identify the games just like gaming consoles work. For example, with a PlayStation 2 you can't just put a burned copy and eagerly wait for the game to load. Of course gaming consoles can be "modded" and the copy protection by-passed, but that's only possible if there is something that's reprogrammable on the drive i.e. most DVD drives have upgreadable firmware or if there is a way to install a separate chip that fools the system into thinking all discs are genuine. Problem with this design is that eventually someone will bring out a start-up disc that fools the drive so that it believes there is a real game inserted and then you swap out discs and play your pirate. This can be overcome with a system that would check the disc every 5 minutes if it is a real authentic disc or not. This is some kind of DRM, but good DRM in that it will annoy only those with pirated copies.
and all the extra cost of doing that comes out of the price of the game.
The people who are buying the game to use it honestly are bearing the brunt of the cost.
The people who are buying the game to use it honestly are bearing the brunt of the cost.
Paul Dwyer
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
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DarkDragon
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- Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:16 am
- Location: Germany
- Contact:
Well its this part of the German law telling us what Digital Rights Management is:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__95a.html
- You are allowed to copy a software for private purpose (But selfmade copy).
- You are not allowed to make it publicly available
- Publicly available doesn't just mean giving it others through the internet, it means to more than 5 persons which are not your next friends or family members.
- "Schutz technischer Maßnahmen" means you are also not allowed to crack the software if it has some parts which don't make it possible for you to copy it. So if a software doesn't want you to copy it, you have to live with that. And that's what DRM does: its impossible for you to copy it more than N times where N is smaller than your friend/familymembercount or 5.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__95a.html
- You are allowed to copy a software for private purpose (But selfmade copy).
- You are not allowed to make it publicly available
- Publicly available doesn't just mean giving it others through the internet, it means to more than 5 persons which are not your next friends or family members.
- "Schutz technischer Maßnahmen" means you are also not allowed to crack the software if it has some parts which don't make it possible for you to copy it. So if a software doesn't want you to copy it, you have to live with that. And that's what DRM does: its impossible for you to copy it more than N times where N is smaller than your friend/familymembercount or 5.
bye,
Daniel
Daniel
And whats the eaisiest way in the world to have your virus, trojan, or root kit distributed and placed on the largest numbers of computers? Why of course, convince people that all the anti-virus and protection/detection software against such things are wrong and that its a false positive.pdwyer wrote:Seems to be a lot of debate on the net whether SecuRom is a rootkit or not.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysi ... 97445.aspx seems to be detecting it as one and Securom says it's a false positive.
Sounds like something similar anyway
People who push for anti-piracy measures are rabid as to their convictions concerning piracy, they imagine piracy where none exists and ignore piracy where it does exist. To compensate they use a 'shot gun scatter' technique in an attempt to catch as much as possible. It is within their interest to violate the intergrity of someones computer with methods they claim are not dangerous. SecuRom has a financial interest in ensuring its product is as widely used and spread as possible, if they don't convince people their product is legitimate their sales go in the crapper and they lose money. In the end all it does it penalize the legitimate user and has not slowed or stopped piracy one little bit.
Personally I think its a root kit, maybe not exactly along the same lines as say for example what Sony did, but it certainly shares a lot of the same attributes, its secretative as to its existance and exact function. If it isn't a root kit, if it is so above board and honest, then why let it install in such a manner as to be hidden and why does it function in such a way that its function is hidden from the computer owner/user? Sure sounds like a root kit to me.
If you don't think its a root kit then I have a deal for you...100% safe and natural male Enhancement, all herbal and natural, with one small pill ...don't worry that the pesky FDA has shown its not 100% natural and that it does not work and sometimes people actually die after taking it, the FDA study is a false positive.
I'm sure piracy exists and I don't agree with it, but i'm more against these types of intrusive, secretive, deceptive, and useless practices that penalize legitimate consumers, when its nothing more then an excuse to raise prices and make more money.
After thinking about I realized that my definition needs a little clarification, so...Trond wrote:Exactly right. Since they don't have any ability to control who uses a particular serial number, it's not DRM.
The serial number itself is not DRM, but the software that validates the serial number and either allows or denies access based on the serial number validation is DRM.
How does it penalize legitimate users? As I've said before, I have lots of games protected with SecuROM and never have any problems with it. So how is it penalizing me? It's not. The only people it penalizes are those trying to go beyond the allowed terms of the license agreement in one way or another and in those cases, it's doing exactly what it was designed to do.SFSxOI wrote:In the end all it does it penalize the legitimate user and has not slowed or stopped piracy one little bit.
Ever consider that it's trying to be as transparent to the end user as possible, which is the way DRM should be unless you are trying to violate the license it's enforcing.SFSxOI wrote:If it isn't a root kit, if it is so above board and honest, then why let it install in such a manner as to be hidden and why does it function in such a way that its function is hidden from the computer owner/user?
And it's not that secretive either, it's pretty easy to find and remove if you really want to and are sure you have no other games installed that depend on it. The only thing you can't remove are the registry entries but with the program removed, those entries just become meaningless data.
Oh, and the reason it's not uninstalled when you uninstall the program it was protecting is same reason that shared DLLs are rarely uninstalled. If you have other programs on your system that use it, uninstalling it would prevent those programs from running.
Last edited by Tipperton on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It penalizes you simply because you have to put up with it and pay for it where as it doesn't stop the pirates at all.
Trying to be transparent? Just how is it being transparent when its doing things it doesn't let you, the computer owner, know about? Thats not being transparent, thats usurping your rights to ownership over your own computer.
You really think the only things it does not un-install are the registry entries? Seriously?
Tell me, why do you think root kit detection detects it in the first place?
You seriously think that DRM exists only to protect against piracy? Have you not followed any of the thousands of things on the internet, in the news, in the various trade publications, about what big content intends DRM to do? It isn't to protect against piracy at all despite the implied meaning. DRM intention is to ensure that only big content can control who uses the content or not and charge $$$$ for it. If big content sticks to the schedule and gets their way, between 3 to 8 years from now, you will be paying for ALL on-line multiplay or use of the game you purchased on an hourly or monthly basis even after you purchased the game. Thats what DRM is intended to do, increase revenue and income not stop piracy. All this stuff now like SecuRom is only refining methods that will lock your computers to certain content or for certain software use so big content can control what you do with your computers and charge you for it. Its Digital Rights Management not Digital Rights Theft Prevention. Why do you think that almost every piece of computer hardware you buy today (graphics cards, sounds cards, etc....) has some piece of DRM built in, why is it necessary for example to have a graphics card thats DRM compliant (using the graphics card as an example) or why computer manufacturers are pushing computer based home entertainment centers, its because big content recognizes that in the near future (even happening now) that the internet will be the main delivery vehicle for all major content (games, movies. music, etc...) and they want to control who does what or sees what to maxmize their profits and if everything is DRM compliant it means they control and you don't. For example, they would make sure that if you wanted to play some music, with DRM compliant hardware they will be able to charge you on a per track basis for that CD you played and if you didn't pay they can turn off your sound card, or for a movie they will charge you on some time basis and if you don't pay they turn off your graphics card - and you end up having to pay them to get the things turned back on. They want to sell you the product then charge you rent to own it as well. Thats the reason DRM doesn't stop piracy because its not intended to stop piracy.
OK, lets say that DRM is not a bad thing in concept. It is a bad thing in practice when it compromises your computer in some way. All of the security experts in the world harp on computer and network security and everyone does what they can to secure their computers and network...then comes along a game with something like SecuRom that will bypass all the security you worked so hard to implement and does so secretively and removes some measure of the computer owners control over their own computer and all at once everyone is "Oh great, its good, DRM is good, and those that don't like it are wrong and are only out to pirate the content". Yep its a strange world indeed where someone can say they don't like something because it abridges or infringes upon their control and usurps ownership over their own computers and others accuse them of being pirates and criminals.
Trying to be transparent? Just how is it being transparent when its doing things it doesn't let you, the computer owner, know about? Thats not being transparent, thats usurping your rights to ownership over your own computer.
You really think the only things it does not un-install are the registry entries? Seriously?
Tell me, why do you think root kit detection detects it in the first place?
You seriously think that DRM exists only to protect against piracy? Have you not followed any of the thousands of things on the internet, in the news, in the various trade publications, about what big content intends DRM to do? It isn't to protect against piracy at all despite the implied meaning. DRM intention is to ensure that only big content can control who uses the content or not and charge $$$$ for it. If big content sticks to the schedule and gets their way, between 3 to 8 years from now, you will be paying for ALL on-line multiplay or use of the game you purchased on an hourly or monthly basis even after you purchased the game. Thats what DRM is intended to do, increase revenue and income not stop piracy. All this stuff now like SecuRom is only refining methods that will lock your computers to certain content or for certain software use so big content can control what you do with your computers and charge you for it. Its Digital Rights Management not Digital Rights Theft Prevention. Why do you think that almost every piece of computer hardware you buy today (graphics cards, sounds cards, etc....) has some piece of DRM built in, why is it necessary for example to have a graphics card thats DRM compliant (using the graphics card as an example) or why computer manufacturers are pushing computer based home entertainment centers, its because big content recognizes that in the near future (even happening now) that the internet will be the main delivery vehicle for all major content (games, movies. music, etc...) and they want to control who does what or sees what to maxmize their profits and if everything is DRM compliant it means they control and you don't. For example, they would make sure that if you wanted to play some music, with DRM compliant hardware they will be able to charge you on a per track basis for that CD you played and if you didn't pay they can turn off your sound card, or for a movie they will charge you on some time basis and if you don't pay they turn off your graphics card - and you end up having to pay them to get the things turned back on. They want to sell you the product then charge you rent to own it as well. Thats the reason DRM doesn't stop piracy because its not intended to stop piracy.
OK, lets say that DRM is not a bad thing in concept. It is a bad thing in practice when it compromises your computer in some way. All of the security experts in the world harp on computer and network security and everyone does what they can to secure their computers and network...then comes along a game with something like SecuRom that will bypass all the security you worked so hard to implement and does so secretively and removes some measure of the computer owners control over their own computer and all at once everyone is "Oh great, its good, DRM is good, and those that don't like it are wrong and are only out to pirate the content". Yep its a strange world indeed where someone can say they don't like something because it abridges or infringes upon their control and usurps ownership over their own computers and others accuse them of being pirates and criminals.
Last edited by SFSxOI on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:38 pm, edited 15 times in total.
you're paying for it! the cost of securom is factored into the price of the game so you are buying a securom license tooTipperton wrote:How does it penalize legitimate users? As I've said before, I have lots of games protected with SecuROM and never have any problems with it. So how is it penalizing me?
You may not have had problems but many have, that equals support costs which also go into the game.
For many others, there's the time waste and hassle of putting up with the DRM issues themselves which fortunately you have to date avoided.
People starving in africa doesn't effect me, people suffering from aids don't effect me either. Everyone should stop whinging about those too! levels of magnitude different perhaps but just because YOU haven't had a problem to date makes you an advocate of a system that causes problems for others?
Paul Dwyer
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
Tipperton wrote:I have Spore installed and can find not a single shred of evidence that a rootkit was installed with it.
If its so easy to find, why can't you find it?Tipperton wrote:And it's not that secretive either, it's pretty easy to find and remove.
No. That's not why DRM exists at all. If you don't even know why companies invest so much money in these systems, I suggest you find out before making further posts.My opinion still stands that the people crying the loudest about how bad DRM is are those that don't want it so they can violate license agreements by sharing the content it protects. And it is just those types of people that is the reason DRM exists.
Summary: They want you to pay per month. They want software-as-a-service. Which brings absolutely nothing more to the end user, but a whole lot more money to the distributors. Alternatively, they could multiply the one-time cost by 1000%, but no one would like that, right? Well, this is the same, just with the cost spread out over time, and with virus-like software attached.John Riccitiello, CEO of EA wrote:There is a longer-term transition from a disk-based model for retail sales to an “average revenue per user” model. Five to seven years from now, investors will look at EA as how we have 100 million customers where we have an ARPU relationship that amounts to so many dollars a month. It’s different from selling so many disks a month at wholesale prices. It’s a gradual evolution. But we need the tools to be able to do that. The ARPU model is a better margin business for us. It’s less cyclical. It’s a better business. Some of our businesses have characteristics like that: EA Mobile, Pogo.com, and The Sims. We want to move in that direction. People predicted the demise of the DVD rental model for Blockbuster a long time ago. I don’t want to be the guy with a retail store renting DVDs in a world that has moved to Netflix and pay-per-view. We want to innovate and drive along that front, whether it’s with FIFA Online or Pogo or The Sims. Nucleus is a positive step in that direction. Spore has a download model. We could wait for someone else to eat our lunch or we could do it ourselves.
I give up!
You people have made your decision based on god knows what regardless of whether it's right or wrong and no amount of discussion will change your opinion.
Your minds are totally closed. I should pity you but my opinion of why you are so opposed to DRM doesn't allow for that.
As long as people are willing to steal software and digital content, DRM is here to stay, live with it or get out of the game.
Go ahead and boycott any software or digital content that has DRM. I don't care. But while you are lamenting that this game or that content has DRM and you can't enjoy it because you're boycotting it, I'll be enjoying it.
You people have made your decision based on god knows what regardless of whether it's right or wrong and no amount of discussion will change your opinion.
Your minds are totally closed. I should pity you but my opinion of why you are so opposed to DRM doesn't allow for that.
As long as people are willing to steal software and digital content, DRM is here to stay, live with it or get out of the game.
Go ahead and boycott any software or digital content that has DRM. I don't care. But while you are lamenting that this game or that content has DRM and you can't enjoy it because you're boycotting it, I'll be enjoying it.
http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?op ... &Itemid=47Tipperton wrote:How does it penalize legitimate users?
- Bought game, but key didn't work, support has no good answer and simply deletes the support ticket.
- PC slows down
- CD/DVD burner stops working
- Played HALO perfectly on the highest settings, goes down to 5fps on the lowest settings after patching Spore (!)
- "Star Wars Forces of Corruption had Securom and refused to work on my system with Windows XP and Windows Vista." (Legally purchased.)
You can read all the entries yourself.
you did ... , my decision to not allow drm on my system is based on facts,when i see a game runing faster without the drm , my system slowdown because of drm, i'm not happy with them, when i see that i may not be abble to install later a game that i buy today i'm not happy with that.Tipperton wrote:I give up!
You people have made your decision based on god knows what regardless of whether it's right or wrong and no amount of discussion will change your opinion.
and anyway no amount of discussion will change your opinion.
i can return that to you, you don't wan't to see the evidence that drm are bad for the honest customer and that they not in any maner stop anyone to go to piracy.Your minds are totally closed
what is you're opinion on why we are oposed to drm ? as a side note it's not us that need pity ... but the people that use drm cripled software.. I should pity you but my opinion of why you are so opposed to DRM doesn't allow for that.
people that really wan't to steal software or digital content don't care about drm as they don't have to deal with...As long as people are willing to steal software and digital content, DRM is here to stay
nope, it's better to fight them and to let know that we don't wan't them ... rebelion is the way.live with it or get out of the game.
you taking this too personaly, i in other hand will not be happy the day of you'll run in some drm issue and this day you might see why we don't like them.Go ahead and boycott any software or digital content that has DRM. I don't care. But while you are lamenting that this game or that content has DRM and you can't enjoy it because you're boycotting it, I'll be enjoying it.
so enjoy all the good time you'll have looking us boycotting games
i on my side will enjoy when company that use drm will stop using them or goes out of business.
so to close my post i'm just have to say that in the first place Rook Zimbabwe asked us what we think about drm.
it was just a post to help him to make his decision by reading different vues on the question... it's just you that tried to change our minds. so give up if you wan't , i don't really care
I repeat what case said: People who want to steal software couldn't care less about this discussion since they don't have to deal with DRM. Cracked software is DRM-free. Is this so hard to understand?Your minds are totally closed. I should pity you but my opinion of why you are so opposed to DRM doesn't allow for that.