Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition!

[Behnood]

hi
today i finished downloading visual studio 2005 express edition. as you may be know microsoft released this version free. before downloading i though as a free software it can't be good enough. but after working with it i must say that it's awesome good!
may be making such a great tools free for every one sounds good, but it remembers me first days of browsers war.
so how someone can beat microsoft? i guess this will finish other IDE developers and also they have to make their product free also!
actually i'm worry about PB, cause pb isn't very simple as BB and not yet pulished enough as VS.
i think the teams must do something about PB!
regards
Behnood

#sorry if i post it wrong forum. i think general is the right place, but may be offtopic was better.

[Shannara]

Maybe off topic. I agree on both points, these were made somewhere back last year or so as well Hopefully, after Fred is done with the features of the language, hopefully the usability will be upgraded as well

Btw: welcome to the forums!

[PB]

> i guess this will finish other IDE developers and also they have to make
> their product free also

I guess Microsoft made it free because if people had to pay, they'd choose
something else, such as PureBasic.

And yes, this is Off-Topic. General Discussion is for topics about PureBasic
itself, not the competition and things like that.

[USCode]

FYI - The Express Edition is free ... but just for awhile, then they will start charging again:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/expre ... q/#pricing

IMHO, I don't see comparing the two as an apples-apples comparison. VS is fine but I personally like the PB IDE as is and with an improved VD (under development?), it will be very nice.

[srod]

I'm still not convinced with .net. Sure, with Visual Studio it is slick and all-powerful (in a 'I've got no idea how all this stuff actually works' kind of way), but it simply has no 'soul' No sense of ownership when you create a program.

Guess I'll use it as more and more computers come ready equipped with the framework and I no longer have to worry about whether the gargantuan runtime is installed etc. but it will not be my ideal platform. I prefer a more 'hands on' style of programming and like to know exactly what is going on 'under the hood'.

Purebasic.net anyone?

[Behnood]

sure yes uscode,i forgot to mention it. th advantage of those product is almost in their ide. and i think pb ide isn't compareble to them yet.

btw, how i can send this thread to the right place,off topic?

[Behnood]

look as your customers, they will not care what is under the hood and also how the program work, what they have respect for it is just the useabilty, price and results. so i think in this way more and more new people will go to ms trap if they can't find any other opprtunities. just compare internet explorer to firefox. i like (i guess you too) firefox cuase it's more secure fast and fun but how many people use firefox instead of preinstalled IE?
i think visual designer is late , wish to see major release soon.

[Edwin Knoppert]

>look as your customers, they will not care what is under the hood.

Actually that is a most common and misused remark imo.
An end-user *might* not really care indeed, it's system-admin usually will.
So you are not writting using a specific choosen language for the end-user but you are for the person who actually install's it.
In fact, you are also an end-user and might not decide to install the framework because it's bloathed or whatever reason you have.
So, to simply think all users accept blindly...?

[Straker]

look as your customers, they will not care what is under the hood and also how the program work, what they have respect for it is just the useabilty, price and results.

So true. Customers are solutions-oriented, not code-oriented. I see more and more software companies exclaim that their product is coded in .NET as though it is a feature of the product! For most users, this is about as valid as saying you coded it in gorganzola cheese.

Featuring what language you coded the software in is really only relevant to corporate managers who have been mandated to "buy Microsoft" - which is really just a CYA, since "no one ever got fired for buying Microsoft", which used to be "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" back in the 80s.

/steps off soap box...

[srod]

look as your customers, they will not care what is under the hood and also how the program work, what they have respect for it is just the useabilty, price and results. so i think in this way more and more new people will go to ms trap if they can't find any other opprtunities. just compare internet explorer to firefox. i like (i guess you too) firefox cuase it's more secure fast and fun but how many people use firefox instead of preinstalled IE?

But I'm looking at things from a developer's point of view and the style of programming that I like best. I don't particularly think that, as things stand at present, PB has anything to fear from VS as it is aimed and probably appeals to a completely different set of users. True, VS will probably offer a quicker turnaround than PB when developing commercial apps, and I can see myself making use of it from time to time, as I'm sure users of classic VB might turn to PB for developing a dll or two, but given the choice,... well there is no choice as far as I'm concerned!

[PB]

> how i can send this thread to the right place,off topic?

You need to PM a moderator, or hope they see this and do it.

[Behnood]

Amiga was a great computer. it was the best at its time and also beyond its time. compare to it ibm-pc was just a expensive slow machine with no color no sound...
now that wonderful pretty amiga is dead and those ugly ibm compatible machines still alive and grewup every day!
because no one care how beauty or advance you make somethings.
i wish no one repeat this story about PB!
you know, i think someday may be fred sell the pb to ms! like what happened to rapidq (has been sold to realbasic)

sure i don't think that there is any button like,

Fred: hey beriko! we need a more pulish vd
beriko:ok guy just let me click the "Pulish full featured VD making" button...ok here you are. also do you want me click that button there with a question mark symbole to make a best help files you ever seen?


it will take a long time, but what i try to say is, if pb wants to exist there must be a plan for it (infact i'm sure there must be s good one right now) may be i scared too much!

[USCode]

I don't particularly think that, as things stand at present, PB has anything to fear from VS as it is aimed and probably appeals to a completely different set of users.

Exactly, this is what I was trying to say before, it's an apples-oranges comparison.

I think many PB users are independent software developers/entrepreneurs. A single developer developing applications for their own use, clients, in-house use, shareware, etc. AND he's interesting in cross-platform applications.

Whereas the vast majority of VS users are in corporate IT departments, work for ISV's, etc. and are obviously only interesting in the Windows platform. Though the mono-project will be helpful in getting .NET apps to other platforms soon.

[SFSxOI]

They will start charging for it before long. Offering the free edition is only a marketing tool. You will notice that the free edition doesn't do certain things and when you investigate why you will quickly find out that you are directed to the retail version of visual studio. Its only a marketing tool to sell something.

[inc.]

I guess Microsoft made it free because if people had to pay, they'd choose something else, such as PureBasic.

In my case it wasn't just an argument of price.
My only programming experiences which where still left in some deeeeeeeep regions of my brain where from ... tataaaaa: Commodore64 basic (1983-1986).

My WebPage designs resulted out of those WYSIWYG editors like Golive and Dreamweaver .... so here I hadn't get into the programming business again to make simple things working.

When I wanted to start building Win32 apps I've been searching for quite a time - cause I didn't want to start learning something which could be very fast discovered by itself as wasted time.

Purebasic made me feel a bit "home" cause of its Basic language, and ..... cause of the fantastic overview of sources and examplecodes.
No need to search in a SDK jungle like in case of MSVC++ or searching for included functions/procedures. (Seen with verry beginners eyes at that time).
So how getting into PB? hit F1 in the IDE or type in www.purearea.net or visit the PB forum. ---> thats also an argument for a fast and incomplicated beginning of learning a programming language.

Also even Vstudio 2005 express is free ..... do keep an eye on the very very beginners how long they can withstand it.
Installing is no problem, just download, get into the PSDK installing and .... begin to code -> uops! Here often the end starts for many beginners.
Way of handling Type definitions, pointers, casting and so on (we still see this issue with the eyes of a very beginner).

If it would be just a matter of price, then the beginner-world uniformly would start using DevC++ (in case C++ is wanted to get into programming) or Sharpdevelop (in case of C#).

I think most beginners do decide on the "inner feeling" when looking at IDE screenshots, sourcecode examples, communities and suggestions by other beginners (not cracks).