PureBasic Forums - English

Interesting read from Mark Sibly who decided to work on the next version of the Monkey programming language.

http://marksibly.blogspot.co.uk/

Discussing language features right now in forum section for MX2.

Could become beautiful. Full OOP support with Inheritance, Interfaces, Generics, Properties, Function/Method overloading, optional Parameters, Exception Handling,
Importing C/C++ code and .lib, Delegates, nested Classes and nested Functions, inclusive mobile Targets (iOS, Android, RaspPi, ..) additionally to Desktop (Win,Linux,Mac).
Maybe using LLVM Clang. Like a combination of BlitzMax + MonkeyX + new stuff - HTML5 = MX2.

So many features I really like... nearly C++ power with a BASIC-like syntax.

Mark Sibly wrote:The sad truth is, Monkey sales are not good and it's likely I will have to find some kind of 'supplementary' income soon...

Surprise! Surprise!

While the monetising factor is clearly the driving force behind the constant release of new products, BRL has, in doing so, also left their faithful users in the lurch. Instead of bolstering a solid product with updates and improvements, the once-acclaimed Blitz line has been allowed to wither into orphaned open-source projects.

And now, with this announcement of Monkey-2, history seems poised to repeat itself.

When a developer shows no commitment to its products, and no loyalty to its users, it shouldn't come as a surprise when it's their turn to be left in the lurch.

Bravo and kudos to the wonderfully diligent PureBasic team!

TI-994A wrote:When a developer shows no commitment to its products, and no loyalty to its users, it shouldn't come as a surprise when it's their turn to be left in the lurch.

Bravo and kudos to the wonderfully diligent PureBasic team!

i'm agree

TI-994A wrote:the once-acclaimed Blitz line has been allowed to wither into orphaned open-source projects

Blitz Basic has been a laughingstock in the coding community for years now. Such a shame. It used to be awesome.

TI-994A wrote:When a developer shows no commitment to its products

LOL!

Mark Sibly is enhancing his languages every time. From procedural Blitz3D to object-oriented BlitzMax to
object-oriented and generic MonkeyX. He is learning lessons on his way, and every new language (version)
is build on top of the older one.
This time he is removing HTML5 target, because it was a limiting factor for all the other targets (iOS, Android, Desktop, ..) -
which allows adding even new features now. That makes it one of the most modern and advanced BASIC-like languages out there.

I think Mark is learning his lessons. MX2 will be fully free and OpenSource (so, what's your problem, really?) - backed through Patreon by people
who want to support the new stuff and the creator. I hope he gets backed by 1000 people who spend $5/month or something similar, just to continue his adventure.

Unfortunately you can only dream of such features and targets. The PB team always resisted to enhance the language itself (their own fault, so blame them),
especially when it comes to object-orientation and similar advanced features.

Current PB targets are too limiting. Ordinary people (middle class, like me) use iPads, Android phones/tablets, and Amazon FireTV,
and that will be even more interesting with Windows 10 universal apps for Desktop, Phone, Tablets, HoloLens, RaspPi2, and other IoT devices....

Win9x/XP-centered programming languages are dying. And that's not a bad thing at all... at least it's not a big problem (for most of us).

I kind of agree with what Danilo is saying. Technologies are shifting rapidly (such is the nature of computing and programming languages).
PureBasic, while it has become pretty stable and robust within the last two years, is just stuck in the past from a modern perspective,
which is really unfortunate since it's heavily limiting the target audience.

Then again, for very specific applications PB is my language of choice, which is the purpose of programming languages, regardless of their popularity.

Interesting html5 was dropped...Importing C++ libs allows big head starts in many apps.
But, Pure+Spider Basic will be a tough combo to beat. And we have not seen what PB 5.4 adds Maybe with LLVM we can get the same targets?

Danilo wrote:Mark Sibly is enhancing his languages every time. From procedural Blitz3D to object-oriented BlitzMax to object-oriented and generic MonkeyX.

Hi Danilo. That's exactly the point. Instead of supporting a core language, he's decided to introduce a new language every few years, essentially leaving users of the previous products in the lurch. His idea of lifetime support & upgrades is no more than a few years.

The new products might be god's gift to programming, I don't know, but that's totally irrelevant. It certainly isn't any gift to the loyal users that would have to purchase a new license every time he jumps ship to captain a new one.

That's the lack of loyalty and commitment I'm talking about.

Danilo wrote:I think Mark is learning his lessons. MX2 will be fully free and OpenSource (so, what's your problem, really?) - backed through Patreon by people who want to support the new stuff and the creator.

Yes, indeed he has. And that lesson is not to depend on a bunch of indie and hobby programmers for a living. Now he's going for the gold - open-source funding. If he's lucky, he should be raking it in before you could say "Monkey 3"; just in time for another round of crowd funding.

Danilo wrote:I hope he gets backed by 1000 people who spend $5/month or something similar, just to continue his adventure.

Oh, Danilo. You must be kidding, right? If that were true, MX2 would never see the light of day. He's more ambitious than that; much, much more.

Danilo wrote:The PB team always resisted to enhance the language itself (their own fault, so blame them), especially when it comes to object-orientation and similar advanced features.

Current PB targets are too limiting. Ordinary people (middle class, like me) use iPads, Android phones/tablets, and Amazon FireTV, and that will be even more interesting with Windows 10 universal apps for Desktop, Phone, Tablets, HoloLens, RaspPi2, and other IoT devices...

The good old PureBasic team has consistently delivered exactly what they have promised their users; a development platform for Windows, OSX, and Linux. And they have continuously and diligently delivered on that promise, through free updates and upgrades, unfailingly for the past fifteen years straight.

They too could have simply opted to release new products every few years, abandoning the previous ones, and forcing their users to purchase new licenses. But instead, they have evolved the core language to what it is today, without any excuses whatsoever. They have changed command names, function syntaxes, variable types, and even introduced new ones; and even though it sometimes broke compatibility with earlier versions, they unwaveringly forged ahead in the name of product improvements and enhancements, to give us the best versions of their promise.

The current versions of PureBasic work on the latest versions of the platforms that they support, and implement the latest frameworks.

And, as if that's not enough, they have rewarded all their users with free copies of their new product, SpiderBasic. An idea that would make BRL cringe.

That's product commitment and user loyalty at its very best.

If you'd need OOP or any similar advanced features, or if you'd want to target other platforms, then you should be looking for alternative development tools. Your needs and requirements that fall outside of PureBasic's scope is not a shortcoming on its part, but simply an unrealistic expectation on yours.

I know that you're one of Marc Sibly's avid supporters (judging from your posts over there), but I'm just telling it like it is; no embellishments, no exaggerations.

@TI-994A:
In my opinion there are more things changing.

1.)
More and more products become open-source, especially programming languages and frameworks/libraries for it.

2.)
Internet of Things (IoT). Means many little devices that connect to each other and play together.
The connected toaster, refrigerator, watch, tablets, personal health devices... it's coming.

3.)
Just look at how Microsoft is changing. Massive "cloud-first, mobile-first" campaign. Everything in Azure:
Office online, Visual Studio online, Adobe products online, ...
Also, Microsoft massively pushes cross-platform and web development, always including mobile devices.
Windows 10 universal apps for Desktop, Phone, Tablets, HoloLens...
Qt is fully cross-platform, too - for a reason.

4.)
Today's kids don't start on C64 with BASIC v2. When kids get interested in programming, they want
to program the devices they use every day. Instead of C64 it's often XBox, Playstation, iPad/iPhone, Android Phones/Tablets/FireTV,
or their RaspberryPi for controling a LEGO robot.
The next generation of programmers start most likely with bracketed languages already. There just are not
many good BASIC's out there for all the needed platforms, and the big languages and frameworks are very, very powerful
and almost always free.

5.)
Many kids also start with web programming. Javascript and thousands of available libraries and frameworks, Flash (coming to an end).
In it's current state, SpiderBasic is missing all the connectivity, database- and cloud-tools that are required today.
Online game programmers also use other kits because they have so many built-in things (Animated sprites, Level loader and editor, Physics engine, ...),
just look around (Phaser.io, libGDX, ...).
OGRE is cross-platform: Windows (all major versions), Linux, Mac OSX, Android, iOS, Windows Phone & WinRT Support
Unreal Engine supports WebGL and mobile devices.


Many things changed over the last decade, and are still changing radically. Don't close your eyes... everything's agile.
That's absolutely nothing against PB, btw. PB is what it is, and is relatively good at it.
Let's see in 10 or 20 years - when the world will again be very different from today...

Hello again Danilo. Absolutely valid points; although I'd have to stipulate that they have nothing to do with our earlier discussion.

The world of computers are evolving at an unprecedented pace, and even the supporting technologies are having a hard time keeping up. However, we have to also realise that most of these innovations might not make it to the next level, and if they do, they might not be utilising the same technologies.

Let's not forget WindowsCE, OS/2, WebTV, and the Apple Newton. All proprietary, cutting-edge technologies of their times, but nowhere to be seen today.

So, it would not be wise to jump onto untried and untested platforms hastily. HTML5 is still a work in progress, evolving slowly from the current HTML and JavaScript technologies. IoT is nothing more than an ideal with no firm or common consensus; hardly concrete platforms.

As for Microsoft, we all know their level of commitment to their new technologies. Windows RT was just axed, Silverlight has seen its last incarnation, and IE already seems to have its flimsy little head on the guillotine. Even their current Phone platform was implemented just five years ago, after its predecessor, Windows Mobile, was killed.

Nonetheless, kids priming on bracket languages are a hard-sell. Granted, some tacks can even do Assembly at a very early age, but this is not the general demographic. Learning a programming language is not a natural process, and cryptic symbols and brackets can be daunting. Currently, primary schools tend to teach visual languages like Scratch, Alice, and Stencyl, and secondary schools prefer languages like Java, Python, and Visual Basic. Clearly, these languages were not chosen for their broad platform support, but rather for their ease-of-use. Even Apple has seen the error of its ways with Objective-C, and is in the gradual process of replacing it with the new, more readable Swift language.

As programmers, we cannot lock ourselves in to just one language and expect it to be the panacea for all our development requirements. We should in fact use the appropriate tool for each job. Development tools that target multiple platforms usually have severe shortcomings; it's hard to be everything to everyone. This is why BRL's removing HTML support from its upcoming MX2, and also why Apple does not support Adobe Flash.

Everything is changing indeed, no arguments there, but it will continue to change; the trick is to adapt.

@Danilo Fully agree. well put!!!.

Zebuddi.

Hi,

Danilo wrote: ...PB is what it is, and is relatively good at it ....

and we love it for what it is! Despite you are raising very valid points

TI-994A wrote: ... As programmers, we cannot lock ourselves in to just one language and expect it to be the panacea for all our development requirements. We should in fact use the appropriate tool for each job. Development tools that target multiple platforms usually have severe shortcomings; it's hard to be everything to everyone ...

this is very true and i think PB team is very much aware of all those facts/points mentioned above (or spread in other similar topics)

skywalk wrote:And we have not seen what PB 5.4 adds Maybe with LLVM we can get the same targets?

Is LLVM really on the roadmap or is that just wishful thinking on your part

the.weavster wrote:Is LLVM really on the roadmap or is that just wishful thinking on your part

on 26 Oct 2010 Fred wrote:LLVM is an interesting technology and we could use it in the future if we need to support other processor types. [...].

Greetings ... Peter