PureBasic Forums - English

Hi

I have a feature request especially for 3D Programming - so I post it here and not in the regular Feature Request section.

I don't know how many people use 3D with PB ... when I look at this section 3D Programming there's not many action going on. As I stated many times before. I am working with PB since it exists regulary and since 2 - 3 years every day.

What makes me still always look for other 3d engines? Yes - The ogre mesh and even more the skeleton conversion!
From 100 animated models I want to use there are at least 95 which do NOT work.
I use 4 different converters (the best for all purposes in my view is Fragmotion) including the one from the Ogre website - none of them produces a usable result. I have most originals as .x (DX8) - in whatever format I convert them - in every other engine they work errorfree - converting them to the Ogre system it produces rubbish.

I think this is the main reason that there are so few people (as it seems) using PB for 3D Programming ...

You are on such a good way ... PB 5.00 b5 is such a nice piece of work for 3D Games Programmers ... can you please find a way to import animated models from other formats (preferably .x)
Even if you need to convert them internally to Ogre if needed?

The momentary way is a waste of time when you know that only 5 of 100 models are converted and the rest does not work. Scaling, Positioning rather every thing fails. The center gets lost and they fly 50 meters high in the air instead of walking on the ground ... rather annoying and unusable. Especially if you test them in Viewers and other 3DEngines and they run errorfree ...

Ok - if there are now 100 people telling me I am a fool and they tell that they never have problems to convert models to Ogre ... hmmm ... then I must think again what to do ... if not ... well then its time for the import feature ...

RR

The fact is there is some commercial games (see TorchLight, SalvationProphecy, etc.) which uses OGRE and the mesh format, so it has to work somehow. My bet is they are modeling and exporting in a row using Maya, XSI or Blender, and the 3 exporters for these softs seems rock solid. The converters are often quick hacks. If you can find a solid pipeline to convert your mesh, it would indeed help a lot. I can give your the project to compile OgreASSIMPConverter if you want to take a look why it does work (assimp should provide accurate informations, so i bet it's the encoder which is wrong). It's in C++ tough.

Yes I know, Fred
There are some Engines based on Ogre - I own NeoAxis for instance - but I prefere working with a system where I can code each line myself - PUREBASIC

Well - I'd really like to know how many people have the same trouble with animated models ... and if they would prefere importing x-models as well.

Assimp has even trouble importing some x-files - maybe they have fixed the error meanwhile after I reported it ... and it can only play the first animation ... assimp is not a good example ...
And the Assimp Converter is even worse than the Ogre Commandline Tools
Well - you find that out only if you heavily work with it - theory and reality is often a difference ...

RR

PS: My 101st post in 9 years - I did not get on the nerves of you guys too much

AssImp reported an unexpected ;, in most of the .x-models ... interesting that the same models can be viewed with DX-Viewer, Fragmotion, can be imported in Nuclear Basic, Nuclear Fusion, Blitz3D, 3DRad, MP3D and others ...

To add to my previous post:

If I export a model to x I have several opportunities - flip handedness, add a root frame, choose hierarchical mesh or not, I can export how its needed by the engine ...

With all these Ogre Exporters you have no choice - they export and you have to live with the result ... and it is usually rubbish ...

I wrote code which altered the exported xml-files - on some occasion it was rather successful - some exports could be fixed by correcting the base animation keys - but that is playing with luck - it works only in some cases ...

Useful indeed, but I personally think PB team should focus on exposing more functionality within the 3D library rather than try to write multiple import formats. The point am trying to make is that there are so many variations of game compatible model files that by the end of the day PB team would not be able to accommodate them all. Even if they decide to support only DirectX models it still has so many flavours and sooner or later you will get into same trouble you're having now with .mesh converters. I rather rely on all possible conversion utilities (and believe me there are hundreds of them) out there and hopefully at least one of them will work for me rather than sit there and wait for another PB update that might possibly improve the model importer. Most of 3d conversion tools have been in development for years, so you can imagine the amount of work it requires to get all possible files to import/convert correctly. Speaking of, have you tried Ultimate Unwrap 3D?

Hi Olby

Well, do you have experience or is your suggestion theory?
How many models do you have - where did you get them - do they work? Did you produce them and successful export them to mesh and skeleton?

That's the question. The functionality of PB has so much increased - now its time to make some beautiful games with it ...

Not some examples with the robot - we know that the robot works ... I'd like to see examples where hundreds of models work ... I have not seen many yet ... I have exported several models successful as I already told - but as I also wrote before - its like a lottery and chances are rare you win ...

I need something reliable ... how to achieve it I don't care ... so the best in my view is an import to PB that always works ... and that can only be achieved if experts like Comtois and Fred work on it ... the coders of exporters have shown they are far from being experts ...
Therefore the feature request ...
Not to mention how many time it would save ... you nowhere get Ogre Models ... you always have to convert ... so why not cut out that detour ...

RR

PS. And Ultimate Unwrap exports to XML as I just see - well, so you have to rely on the Converter tools again - what if they are the weak point?
There must be a reason why it imports and exports 100 different formats - but not direct to mesh and skeleton ...

And something else:
Windows -> Games -> DirectX ... DirectX -> .x ... there are not 100 import formats needed ... only one !
If you buy models or let them produce, you always get a working .x-version!
That's why I so often mention Theory and Praxis is a big difference ...

Nevertheless, you could give a shot to unwrap3d, if the XML output is correct, then converting it to binary .mesh can't fail, as it's handled the same in OGRE.

Fred wrote:Nevertheless, you could give a shot to unwrap3d, if the XML output is correct, then converting it to binary .mesh can't fail, as it's handled the same in OGRE.

Certainly I will try UU again - although this test will cost me $60 - the demo does not work for a test as I read.
I have used it some years ago - not for Ogre Conversions - but I was not really glad with it - hope it does the job this time.
The usual thing - you get used to one tool (Fragmotion) and all others don't work as they should ... LOL

I will tell how I get along with it

Thanks
RR


EDIT:
It will not cost me $ 60 - It already had ... I just saw I have the Pro Version already in my Tools collection ...

I don't think you want the game engine converting them eternally. That would be a slow repetitive process. It shouldn't be to hard to convert them to OGRE's format. Can you be more specific on the issue or post screenshots?

Thade wrote:Hi Olby

Well, do you have experience or is your suggestion theory?
How many models do you have - where did you get them - do they work? Did you produce them and successful export them to mesh and skeleton?

That's the question. The functionality of PB has so much increased - now its time to make some beautiful games with it ...

Not some examples with the robot - we know that the robot works ... I'd like to see examples where hundreds of models work ... I have not seen many yet ... I have exported several models successful as I already told - but as I also wrote before - its like a lottery and chances are rare you win ...

I need something reliable ... how to achieve it I don't care ... so the best in my view is an import to PB that always works ... and that can only be achieved if experts like Comtois and Fred work on it ... the coders of exporters have shown they are far from being experts ...
Therefore the feature request ...
Not to mention how many time it would save ... you nowhere get Ogre Models ... you always have to convert ... so why not cut out that detour ...

I agree, but like you've said previously, PB will still need to convert X to MESH internally. This is where the direct usage of .mesh files comes in handy. Why introduce another conversion stage that's error prone and slows down loading of your meshes if there are conversion tools that can do this for you in the first place. Now I hear and totally understand what you're saying regards broken meshes after conversion, but there is always a chance of that happening if you use 3rd party models instead of your own.

Thade wrote:PS. And Ultimate Unwrap exports to XML as I just see - well, so you have to rely on the Converter tools again - what if they are the weak point?
There must be a reason why it imports and exports 100 different formats - but not direct to mesh and skeleton ...

As far as I know OGRE XML specs are constant, whereas the binary mesh file can change from one version to another. If you have original XML file you can use the latest XML to mesh utility provided with OGRE to get the most up to date binary mesh. Or use the binary updating tool that updates your binary models in OGRE format to the latest specs.

If you want you can drop me your problematic models and I can have a look and maybe find out why they're not converted properly.

J. Baker wrote:I don't think you want the game engine converting them eternally. That would be a slow repetitive process. It shouldn't be to hard to convert them to OGRE's format. Can you be more specific on the issue or post screenshots?

Hi J. Baker

You ask me to be specific - have you read what I wrote? Why don't you be specific first? Are you taking theoretical or do you have something already done? A game with many animated models? Which were converted within minutes from other formats?

Please drop into threads, when you have something constructive to add ... not just bla bla "it should'nt be hard to..." is not constructive!

Thank you
RR

Hi

Well Ultimate Unwrap is the biggest flop so far ...

This is one of the models I was talking about working in several engines and viewers and works in Ultimate Unwrap too - even the animations ...


And thats how the Ogre Conversion looks in PB:






This was succesful converted from Fragmotion:



As I said its a lottery ...


Btw. The Ogre Conversion from Fragmotion if the TRex shows at least the model as it should - and the Animations also work - only the Animations change Positions most of the time.

Could you put your T-Rex for download so we can play a bit with it ?

Thade wrote:

J. Baker wrote:I don't think you want the game engine converting them eternally. That would be a slow repetitive process. It shouldn't be to hard to convert them to OGRE's format. Can you be more specific on the issue or post screenshots?

Hi J. Baker

You ask me to be specific - have you read what I wrote? Why don't you be specific first? Are you taking theoretical or do you have something already done? A game with many animated models? Which were converted within minutes from other formats?

Please drop into threads, when you have something constructive to add ... not just bla bla

Thank you
RR

I was just trying to help. Yes, I know the OGRE format well and have done 3D for for over a decade. I see what the problem is by your screen shots. But since your an ass, figure it out on your own.

J. Baker wrote:

Thade wrote:

J. Baker wrote:I don't think you want the game engine converting them eternally. That would be a slow repetitive process. It shouldn't be to hard to convert them to OGRE's format. Can you be more specific on the issue or post screenshots?

Hi J. Baker

You ask me to be specific - have you read what I wrote? Why don't you be specific first? Are you taking theoretical or do you have something already done? A game with many animated models? Which were converted within minutes from other formats?

Please drop into threads, when you have something constructive to add ... not just bla bla

Thank you
RR

I was just trying to help. Yes, I know the OGRE format well and have done 3D for for over a decade. I see what the problem is by your screen shots. But since your an ass, figure it out on your own.

I am not an ass - I only don't want to waste my time with talk about theory ...
You could just have reacted on one of the statements before - showing what you have to offer - but when you say "it should not be too hard to convert" does not show that you have ever tried ...
So why am I the ass and not you?