PureBasic Forums - English

I just read in a newspaper that industry in the Netherlands is having problems
to get experienced coders. This year 2011 they will manage but in 2012 the
problem is going to be real serious. I have no idea if this problem only counts
for the Netherlands or other countries as well. The article says that despite
that they are offered exclusive attractive secundary working conditions, no coders
are replying, because they know that experienced coders can get 80.000 € per year.
(WoW, that's good news). Never knew my self that experienced coders are worth
that much salary.
On the other hand, if you start to think about it, a good coder actually creates
(or improves/adapts the already existing) digital infrastructure of a company.
And that is the central of the company isn't it ? So that makes such a coder
a real important person for the company and yes, that has a price tag on it.
I remember very well the days when companies always told me that I should
be very happy working for them and how they exploited this on me. I wasn't
a coder in those days but repaired hardware/interfaces and wrote manuals.
So, I am very pleased to read that with an expierenced coder it is the other way around :
the company should be very happy that such a coder is working for them !
The article is not perfectly translated with google translate but still readable.

http://translate.google.es/translate?u= ... =&ie=UTF-8


cw

codewalker wrote:because they know that experienced coders can get 80.000 € per year.
(WoW, that's good news). Never knew my self that experienced coders are worth
that much salary.

Depends on you experience and in what field you are working. I know coders getting 50€ per hour.
There is a huge margin for coders. You can get next to nothing or you can get paid extremly well.

But... you won't get paid such salaries if you only know PB.

Blood wrote:But... you won't get paid such salaries if you only know PB.

And why does the programming language matter.
LOL - I'll take any of van Gogh's finger paintings.

Crap in C++ or Java or PB all smells the same.

Better to change the topic - Good years are already here for good coders.

-Rant Off

skywalk wrote:

Blood wrote:But... you won't get paid such salaries if you only know PB.

And why does the programming language matter.
LOL - I'll take any of van Gogh's finger paintings.

Because you may need to work with a existing code base on existing projects.

Thorium wrote:Because you may need to work with a existing code base on existing projects.

True, but I was discussing quality of code, not the total available market for Basic coders.
Clearly there are more C++ coders in the world, but that does not guarantee higher salaries than Basic coders.

I know scientists and engineers that code in all sorts of languages.
Their salary depends on solutions.
I like that world.

skywalk wrote:

Thorium wrote:Because you may need to work with a existing code base on existing projects.

True, but I was discussing quality of code, not the total available market for Basic coders.
Clearly there are more C++ coders in the world, but that does not guarantee higher salaries than Basic coders.

I know scientists and engineers that code in all sorts of languages.
Their salary depends on solutions.
I like that world.

Thats true.
But if you work in a team you have to know the programing language the team uses. And there are not many teams out there that use PB, so your chances to get well paid are not good, if you only know PB.

Of course if you work alone on your code it doesnt make a difference, except the code belongs to the company and they just want you to write it in C/C++ so other coders can maintain the code, in case you quit.
If you want to work for a company you may need to know some common languages. Otherwise you will have a hard time to find a job.

I don't like the discussion about the programming language, as this means you have no experience in software development. An experienced one is able to write programs in any language after about a few days (for typical programming languages) of studying it's syntax and framework.

I partially agree. For example, I can work with many languages, but OOP is totally lost on me.

Professionally computer languages are tools, even thew private I have other values than just "get the task done".
OOP are also just tool, if you like it use it if not don't.

For me it saves a lot of fuzz when dealing with complicated data the also has the bad habit of changing its structure with each version. ... I got lost in updating the code several times before, its at least slightly better after I got is centralized.

Just getting raw data back to the disk with OOP. And the Spectra procedures, structures etc. are all tucked away in a include file of there own.
In procedural versions all access to the Spectra-data where spread out, making any updates to the format very hard.

I'm not saying that OOP is better or worse, just that it fits my present needs.
So; Just get the right tool for you to solve the task you have...

blueznl wrote:I partially agree. For example, I can work with many languages, but OOP is totally lost on me.

Your boss/customer has to decide whether you use OOP or not. In the case he let's you decide: decide for OOP, because it has the advantage of UML (many important diagram types) and many people, including your boss/customer like it, because of stories they heard about softwarecompanies having problems updating their old codes without OOP. Structograms and flowcharts are the only kind of diagrams I know for non OOP development.

The same problem in Germany. We are looking for skilled developers for months, but not even some serious applications Currently, I assign a contract with romanian developers. This is not because of the price, it is because of the lack of people here to hire...

Kukulkan

Kukulkan wrote:The same problem in Germany. We are looking for skilled developers for months, but not even some serious applications Currently, I assign a contract with romanian developers. This is not because of the price, it is because of the lack of people here to hire...

That's why I never want to work as developer and I'll go and be a butcher or such at the end. The requirements ("skill") are too high.
Btw.: a romanian is studying here and I don't think she will pass the next exams. TEAM = Toll ein anderer machts (translation: Fantastic, someone else does it) is her lifestyle. But there are a lot of geeks from russia and china

As most Off-Topic discussions drift into philosophy...here I go

DarkDragon wrote:In the case he let's you decide: decide for OOP,

The trouble with OOP, is the slippery slope to sluggish performance and acceptance of mediocrity.
And it would be laughable to approach it when computers and RAM were young.
I consistently beat OOP style app's throughout my career. Though I probably take longer to deliver.

Beware the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" applicant in your life. You will not be satisfied with his solution.

Would you rather a traveling surgeon, cut open your brain in a class-based operating room where all the instruments are "very nearly" the same?

KJ67 wrote:For me it saves a lot of fuzz when dealing with complicated data the also has the bad habit of changing its structure with each version. ... I got lost in updating the code several times before, its at least slightly better after I got is centralized.

What is wrong with constant review of your core software design as it applies to new problems?
This is what creates innovation and improvements.
When I am stressed and annoyed, I am forced to do better.

skywalk wrote:As most Off-Topic discussions drift into philosophy...here I go

DarkDragon wrote:In the case he let's you decide: decide for OOP,

The trouble with OOP, is the slippery slope to sluggish performance and acceptance of mediocrity.
And it would be laughable to approach it when computers and RAM were young.
I consistently beat OOP style app's throughout my career. Though I probably take longer to deliver.

Beware the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" applicant in your life. You will not be satisfied with his solution.

Would you rather a traveling surgeon, cut open your brain in a class-based operating room where all the instruments are "very nearly" the same?

Well for microcontrollers with small amount of RAM (4kbyte or less) OOP might be a nogo, you're right, but that's an exception. In most cases asymptotical speed optimization is more important than constant speed optimizations as this is a very simple part.

skywalk wrote:

KJ67 wrote:For me it saves a lot of fuzz when dealing with complicated data the also has the bad habit of changing its structure with each version. ... I got lost in updating the code several times before, its at least slightly better after I got is centralized.

What is wrong with constant review of your core software design as it applies to new problems?
This is what creates innovation and improvements.
When I am stressed and annoyed, I am forced to do better.

Not all people are better when being stressed and annoyed, e.g. me.