PureBasic Forums - English

Hello good friends,

I suffer from severe wrist pain whenever I use my computer for more than 2 or 3 hours. This has been going on for 2 years already if not longer. Ever since it happened the first time I had been starting to investigate what could be the cause of this and I've never found a real solution to this problem.

1. My desk is 26" (74 cm) tall, which does contribute to the uncomfort I am experiencing. The pain only comes up when I use my computer though; being a student I do have many very long sessions writing essays like 4 hours straight without breaks, but even then my wrist feels excellent. So yeah, it's the perfect work desk for my studies but not for computer use.

2. I have a (very) expensive ergonomic chair with adjustable height, back support and tilt. It helped me very much to get away from back problems, but it does not have arm rests, which poses as a potential problem whenever I simply want to take rest from the keyboard and mouse; I am forced to keep them on my desk or have them rest on my lap, both are not ideal.

3. I have tried tenths of different mouse pads, with and without gel pad for wrist support. I find those without much more comfortable as the gel pad made my wrist get in an awkward angle and so I experienced even worse pain. Currently I use a simple, flat mouse pad. It feels great whenever I am not experiencing this pain in my wrist.

4. Following up to #3, I have also tried multiple computer mice. Whether ergonomically designed or not, none have helped cure my problem. A big Microsoft mouse has the same feel as the rather small Apple Mighty Mouse. Yes, I've tried all possible mice out there, even corded and cordless versions. Currently I use some generic cordless Logitech, and just like my current mouse pad, feels great whenever I am not experiencing pain in my wrist. Also even if there was a good ergonomically designed mouse that could potentially cure my pain, my wallet will not be so happy about it; mice for show in a computer store do not really give you a good idea of how the mouse feels, because in your particular workspace every mouse will feel different and the problem is that you can not ask for a refund of a mouse you bought simply because it is uncomfortable. So I've lost a lot of money already because of this mice hunting, but in an effort to get some of my money back I sell mice on eBay.

5. I have consulted a chiropractor, who did wonders to my wrist. The pain was gone for a whole week regardless of the continuous use of my PC. Sadly it came back and I believe this time even worse than it was the first time. Also, it costed so much to get the treatment that I am not really willing to go regularly to a chiropractor. After all, the cure was only temporary, not permanent. I have also consulted my doctor to ask about this and I was guided to correct use of my keyboard and mouse. Well, now I don't experience pain when writing with the keyboard, but using the mouse leads guaranteed to this pain that's nearly killing me for the last 2 years.

6. Yes I have tried switching hands. It works as a cure but temporarily only. If I switch from my right hand to the left hand, sure it is a bit awkward to use the mouse but the same pain develops in my left hand as well. I am a "leftie" so I write using a pencil with my left hand, but everything else is done with either hand (hence the quotation marks in "leftie"). I have learned to use the mouse with my right hand and it currently does not pose a problem to conflict with my studies, since I write essays with my left hand. I am afraid though that my right hand will be disabled in a way or another if I continue like this.

7. Since it is only occasional and not permanent pain, I do not have carpal tunnel (or whatever it is called) and a surgery is not necessary (my doctor said that). Also, I've learned to take multiple breaks in an hour to stretch my wrist and rest of the body. If it is of importance, yes I have a healthy diet. The pain still comes up sooner or later when using the computer and this poses as a problem, because as a side job I am system administrator and web master.

Please, can anyone help me? Right now when typing this thread my wrist does not hurt, as stated above, but I could bet my life on it that when I move my mouse down to the Submit button, I'll feel that pain again.

Yes

From practial experience:

1. Switch mouse left / right / left and so on, on a regular basis.

2. Try a different input device (special mouse, touch tablet, etc.).

3. Try a different keyboard (though I think it might be primarily the mouse, it still is worth to try). Check out the 'natural' keyboards.

4. Do 45 min work 15 minute breaks.

the mouse but the same pain develops in my left hand as well. I am a "leftie"

Which is why I think it is primarily your mouse usage. What is your primary use of the machine? Graphical editing?

7. Since it is only occasional and not permanent pain, I do not have carpal

Get a second opinion. You / he / she might be wrong.

> Get a second opinion

And don't ask on the internet for medical advice. See a real live doctor. :roll:

PB wrote:> Get a second opinion

And don't ask on the internet for medical advice. See a real live doctor. :roll:

Which I have done and will in the near future also consult another doctor to be even more sure about this. Why shouldn't I ask here, I really was hoping that someone can talk here form experience, don't tell me you never had wrist pain.

@blueznl:
1. Regular basis? I'll see what I can do.
2. I have tried touch tablets, but they weren't up to my expectations.
3. Will do.
4. Already doing so.
5. My primary use of PC is video/audio editing, lots of mouse clicks. In addition I am sys admin / web master so management of large graphs and the like is also required. I get pain even from simple web surfing.
6. Will do.

Advice (described from left hand usage (with right-hand mouse button settings)):
1. It's not about the mouse, it's about the grip and pointer settings.
- Increase the pointer speed as much as you can bear (on Vista the highest setting is not fast enough, get a better OS!)
- Hold the mouse very loosely, don't rest your hand on it, only your fingertips and a small part of the hand if absolutely needed.
- The entire left side of your hand, including the whole little finger should rest on the table, on the left side of the mouse. If you stretch out your thumb it should post as much upwards as possible, not straight right (or left).
- The thumb goes on the top of the mouse, not on the side. It should be naturally curled, not straightened out.
- The ring finger should go either on the table or on the side of the mouse. It may only touch the top of the mouse when you are right-clicking.
- Both the index and the middle finger rests on the left mouse button, or the index finger may rest on the middle button or scroll wheel.
- When you want to move the pointer, don't lift or move your hand, just push the mouse gently around with your fingers.
- When you need to go a greater distance, sometimes moving your hand is not needed. Just let it rest, and move the mouse the way you want it, lift the mouse up with your fingers and put it down somewhere else, to get to a new area on the screen.
- The primary way of controlling the mouse should not be with the wrist. You should use 60% fingers, 35% moving the whole underarm (from the elbow down) and only the wrist only 5%.
- Never use the wrist to lift your hand from the table (with or without holding the mouse). Use the wrist only for left/right. To lift the hand, use the arm.

This whole thing is a bit complicated, but the idea is that you should hold the hand upright instead of flat.

2. It's about the mouse
- Plain, unergonomic, small mice are best since else it gets in the way of your hand and by that shapes it. Never let the mouse shape your hand. If your hand gets shaped like a mouse it will definetely hurt, that is not natural.
- Don't use gel pads.
- Try putting the mouse pad under your elbow instead of under the mouse.

3. It's not how you use your hand, it's how you don't use it.
- When your wrist and fingers are not properly strong, they will hurt when misused for controlling a mouse. Thus, you must train your wrists and fingers.
I stand by a wall and let me fall against the wall with my back straight. Then I use my hands to stop softly against the wall and then push me back. First i touch the wall with only fingertips once, then once with closed hand (using the knuckles), then with flat hands, then repeat. It must all be done with only soft motions to not hurt the hands, but rather train them. When the hands hit the wall it should be silent, not with a "thud" sound.

Trond wrote:- Increase the pointer speed as much as you can bear (on Vista the highest setting is not fast enough, get a better OS!)

Debian GNU/Linux with XFCE. I set the pointer speed to the fastest possible setting. It was already fast, now it's just faster. Feels a bit awkward, but I'll get used to it.

Trond wrote:- Hold the mouse very loosely, don't rest your hand on it, only your fingertips and a small part of the hand if absolutely needed.
- The entire left side of your hand, including the whole little finger should rest on the table, on the left side of the mouse. If you stretch out your thumb it should post as much upwards as possible, not straight right (or left).

I can not seem to get the left side of my hand and the little finger in a natural position on the left of the mouse. Are you sure you don't mean the right side of my hand?

Trond wrote:- The thumb goes on the top of the mouse, not on the side. It should be naturally curled, not straightened out.
- The ring finger should go either on the table or on the side of the mouse. It may only touch the top of the mouse when you are right-clicking.
- Both the index and the middle finger rests on the left mouse button, or the index finger may rest on the middle button or scroll wheel.

I think I got it right, but a visual presentation or picture would help much, because the current way I am holding the mouse does not feel natural. Maybe I just need to get used to it?

Trond wrote:- When you want to move the pointer, don't lift or move your hand, just push the mouse gently around with your fingers.
- When you need to go a greater distance, sometimes moving your hand is not needed. Just let it rest, and move the mouse the way you want it, lift the mouse up with your fingers and put it down somewhere else, to get to a new area on the screen.

Now it starts to feel very challenging to use the fastest pointer speed. I am having a difficult time moving the mouse up and down.

Trond wrote:- The primary way of controlling the mouse should not be with the wrist. You should use 60% fingers, 35% moving the whole underarm (from the elbow down) and only the wrist only 5%.
- Never use the wrist to lift your hand from the table (with or without holding the mouse). Use the wrist only for left/right. To lift the hand, use the arm.

Sounds simple, but feels hard to adjust those percentages to real figures. I'll try my best.

Trond wrote:This whole thing is a bit complicated, but the idea is that you should hold the hand upright instead of flat.

Okay then I followed at least some of your steps correctly, good start

Trond wrote:2. It's about the mouse
- Plain, unergonomic, small mice are best since else it gets in the way of your hand and by that shapes it. Never let the mouse shape your hand. If your hand gets shaped like a mouse it will definetely hurt, that is not natural.
- Don't use gel pads.
- Try putting the mouse pad under your elbow instead of under the mouse.

I knew ergonomic mice were of no use and gel pads only contributing to discomfort, so I did my homework here! The last point is not possible though. While it certainly feels MUCH better to have mouse pad under my elbow, the mouse pointer wouldn't move anywhere because the top part of my desk is constructed of MDF with a white glossy finish and it's as flat as flat can be. I use an optical mouse though, haven't tried a classic ball mouse, because I do not own one and one problem is that my motherboard has only a PS/2 connection for the keyboard. Are you aware of USB ball mice?

Trond wrote:3. It's not how you use your hand, it's how you don't use it.
- When your wrist and fingers are not properly strong, they will hurt when misused for controlling a mouse. Thus, you must train your wrists and fingers.

Interesting view of the problem, did not think of this!

Trond wrote:I stand by a wall and let me fall against the wall with my back straight. Then I use my hands to stop softly against the wall and then push me back. First i touch the wall with only fingertips once, then once with closed hand (using the knuckles), then with flat hands, then repeat. It must all be done with only soft motions to not hurt the hands, but rather train them. When the hands hit the wall it should be silent, not with a "thud" sound.

Definitely going to try this out. Thank you very much for your help so far! By the way, are you left or right handed?

Talisman wrote:

I suffer from severe wrist pain whenever I use my computer for more than 2 or 3 hours. This has been going on for 2 years already if not longer.

This is definately not normal.

I agree with PB to get another opinion but not a GP, get a specialist doctor.

But first, there are definately some ergonomic things that could be at fault.

My desk is 26" (74 cm) tall, which does contribute to the uncomfort I am experiencing.

It is likely that the desk height combined with chair height is one of the most important factors. If you feel your desk contributes to your uncomfort you should definately replace it, and combine with a suitable height chair.

My desk is 72 cm tall, but this suits my size perfectly. My mouse is located at the same height as my elbow when I am seated in my chair.

When I hold my mouse my hand sits on the desk with my thumb and little finger lightly wrapped around the back of the mouse but also resting on the table, and my index finger resting lightly on the mouse button. I do not know if this is the recommended way, but I can be on the computer all day with no discomfort at all. Obviously, I would recommend people take breaks, and I usually do as well, although it is not unknown for me to not be seen for the whole day other than breakfast, lunch and dinner . Luckily my job means I also get plenty of days of outdoor activity, when I'm not at my home office.

Well I hope there is something in what I have said that will help with your problem. Best luck in finding a solution soon.

I also use to suffer arm / wrist pains when using a mouse, I found by swapping to a track ball the problem was solved. Have you tried one?

Logitech made some very nice ones where the ball is directly under you thumb. Takes a little getting use to at first, but now I wouldn't go back to a mouse. I do still use a gel mouse mat to support my wrist.

This is how I "mouse".
As you can see I hold the mouse very loosely (I'll explain why further below),
most importantly my chair and table are at a height where it's possible for my elbow to rest on my knee, ideally the table should be a bit taller and I'd be able to rest my elbow on the chairs armrest, there is hardly any weight on my wrist at all.

I sit at my computer pretty much all day without any issues, my ass gets tired though

Sorry for slightly dogy and dark images (had to up the gamma afterwards too) not easy to take these shots

(center of gravity of my arm (pivot point?) is on my elbow placed right behind my knee.

I use very high sensitivity, I think it's 1600 DPI on this mouse max and I use that setting. I also make sure that Windows is applying no acceleration.
So when I move the mouse it's at a linear speed.
If I move my fingers one grain of dust, it moves 1 pixel on the screen. A slight exaggerating but...

I use a icemat/icepad (the Steelseries guys still sell them under a I-2 or something brand) unfortunately laser mice don't work so well, optical is the best. It's easy to clean, durably, no scratching and the mice glide damn well, which is the key here.
I barely need to move my fingers to move the mouse.

Trond mentioned 60%, for me it's like closer to 95% finger movement only, and 5% wrist, my arm hardly move at all that.

On my screen resolution of 1680x1050, from left side to right side of the screen I only need to move my fingers to the left or right by two inches to cross the entire screen.

Needless to say it does take some getting used to using fine motoric skills that way, many are not able to do it even. I luckily do not have short fingers, having long fingers help

But the key is that my wrist is not moved while under weight/pressure which is the key here for me, if I rested weight on my wrist, even this finger method would still cause me wrist issues.

I used to rest weight on my wrist a long time ago, I could barely sit an hour before needing to massage my wrist.
Now I can sit a full day straight (and I have on many occasions) for several days in a row with no issues.

It's also important to not let your back carry too much weight either,
either rest against the chair back or use your arms on your knees/thighs to rest your back. And make sure to move your feet and legs around to avoid cutting off blood flow in various parts of your body.

No idea if any of this will help you, but it's worth a shot right?

PS! Make sure it's not too cold in the room as well, your joints might stiffen up if it's too cold, too hot has effects in other ways as well.

PPS! I forgot to mention this, you cant' see my little finger, but my little finger and my thumb basically does almost all the sideways movement, I also use them a lot to pull/push the mouse forward and backwards.
I barely move the hand at all, it's almost just finger joints moving, after all, look at your and, count all those joints, your wrist only has one, do the math which way is best

talisman wrote:

Trond wrote:- Increase the pointer speed as much as you can bear (on Vista the highest setting is not fast enough, get a better OS!)

Debian GNU/Linux with XFCE. I set the pointer speed to the fastest possible setting. It was already fast, now it's just faster. Feels a bit awkward, but I'll get used to it.

It shouldn't be too fast either, just as fast as you can get it without starting to miss things. If you need to strain your hand to hit things, it's too fast.

I can not seem to get the left side of my hand and the little finger in a natural position on the left of the mouse. Are you sure you don't mean the right side of my hand?

You're using the left hand, right? Else, all instructions must be reversed.

Don't strain your hand if it doesn't work for you. I just described how I did it, the point is do not strain your hand, let it rest. And don't bend your wrist up to lift the mouse. Use the fingers and the arm.

While it certainly feels MUCH better to have mouse pad under my elbow, the mouse pointer wouldn't move anywhere because the top part of my desk is constructed of MDF with a white glossy finish and it's as flat as flat can be.

Great if that feels better. If you need the mouse pad under the mouse, get something else to put under your elbow. Right now I use a travel catalogue. The point is that the wrist doesn't need to adjust so much to fit the mouse when the elbow is a little supported.

By the way, are you left or right handed?

I am right handed, but I control the mouse mostly with my left hand (after I had pain in the right hand, I found the left hand was better), and I eat with the fork and knife in the opposite hands of what right-handed people do.

Trond mentioned 60%, for me it's like closer to 95% finger movement only, and 5% wrist, my arm hardly move at all that.

You are right, as much finger movement as possible. 60% is too little.

edit:nm

talisman wrote:
7. .....I do not have carpal tunnel (or whatever it is called) and a surgery is not necessary (my doctor said that).

Hmmmm...i'm not a doctor and i'm not giving you medical advice or anything, but from what youv'e said it sounds like you need a new doctor. The doctor tells you its not carpal tunnel syndrome, yet the doctor doesn't tell you what it is actually and doesn't treat the cause? The doctor gives you temporary relief, but you still experience pain and it comes back? That doesn't sound like a cure to me.

Carpal tunnel syndrome is mis-diagnosed a lot, so is nerve damage, one can mimic the other in some cases. I suffered for about three years with pain as you describe, three different doctors told me it wasn't carpal tunnel but some nerve compression (pinched nerve). Did all sorts of things to relieve it, then the doctor said surgery would solve the problem which he diagnosed as a pinched nerve. I was refered to a neurologist clinic who scheduled the surgery. The morning of the surgery a doctor from the neurology clinic came in and was speaking to me about the surgery that was about to happen, he wasn't the same one that had scheduled the surgery. They had decided to do another MRI before the surgery and after that was over he asked me to do a few movements of my head as he examined. Then for some reason he said he had to go check something and would be back in a few minutes. A few minutes later he came back and told me I did not have a pinched nerve but most likely had carpal tunnel. Cancelled the pinched nerve surgery, a week later had the carpal tunnel surgery and been pain free ever since then.

I'd get another opinion if I were you.

You're placing your arm WRONG!!!!

I used to have this exact problem, it's called tendinitis, i solved it after some trial and error, this is what i did.

1. Always place your forearm on the table when using the mouse

2. I also have big hands so buy a bigger mouse, one that fills your hand palm to the fullest, and with luck one that the mouse buttons get under the fingers without any effort or need to make big movements with the fingers.

Because your current mouse buttons are too close and the mouse is too small you are doing a small wrist twist and the tendons are getting squeezed, that's what's causing the pain after a few hours.

edit: nm

> Why shouldn't I ask here

Because you can't diagnose physical problems via text messages with others.
If you have a medical problem, you see a real doctor -- not your programming
buddies on the internet. And chiropractor <> doctor.

> don't tell me you never had wrist pain

Okay, I won't.