PureBasic Forums - English

I bought PureBasic in July 2003 ... that was 3 years ago
Soon I found out, that its a great tool to write DLLs for Blitz3D to add the missing stuff there - but PureBasic 3D is rather unusable ... especially if you have Blitz3D as well. There are worlds between! They are lightyears apart.

Now I am testing a lot the new version 4.0 Beta ... 11 at present.

I think you have improved in a lot of things.. I like very much, that 64Bit calculations are now possible, network usage is really good now, lots of 2D has been added since...

... but 3D usage is nearly as lousy as it was 3 years ago ... ok, you added some physics ... but that could have been done much better adding the free Ode-DLL with access to the complete Commandset.

What still is missing is the easy building of Meshes, Surfaces and Bones on the fly and then using them. There is a relative Rotate, but no direct Rotate, there are no Pivots you can point and parent entities to. There is no direct Bone-Manipulation, actually there is nothing you really can work with.
The whole 3D implementation is a cold unkind mixed together set of some commands missing the decisive ones you really need... where is PickedEntity, PickedSurface, PickedX etc. where's EntityFX, PaintEntity, a.s.o.? where's CreateTerrain, ModifyTerrain, TerrainDetail and all that?

Is it because you develop and develop and develop, but never use the stuff yourself? Why don't you get hold on the meanwhile quite outdated Blitz3D thing, fiddle around with it, and get a feeling what your "PoorBasic3D" is missing?

This tool could be the best on the market, better than DBPro, better than BMax, PowerBasic and whatever they are called. But you miss the big opportunity.
And even if your defenders here in the forum (as usual) are telling you, this ape is telling rubbish. In your case I wouldn't believe it ... I'd trust my own experience .. and once you try and use your tool to produce some quick and fast 3D stuff on the fly (let's say something simple as a statistics program with 3D-Graphics where a model - preferably a nice girl you already have in .x or .3ds - is pointing at the important realtime changes shown as a mesh, built of some 100 vertices, which is morphing, growing, shrinking) you'll come to the same conclusion.
In Blitz I'd program such a demo in 15 Minutes... unfortunately Blitz us unusable because it doesn't have 64bit calculations what's needed for accuracy... in PB 4.0 it would take days and a lot of conversion tools and subroutines and development of the animations first, and many things more.

Anyway...
You wasted 3 years not improving the 3D commandset as you easy could.
My opinion is: If you put your 4.0 version on the market with this lousy 3D stuff all your other improvements were in vain, because as a 2D tool its already better than the best... but without a usable, programmable 3D you could as well throw it out completely.

Something to think about and discuss...

I would agree that the 3D could use some more work but it wasn't all for nothing. With the new commands you can make a complete game now. I understand your gripes as I also bought PB for the same reason, three + years ago. I just hope that when Fred finishes the bugs in the beta and releases a final 4.0, he'll work more on the 3D commands. I'm just glad to see some collision and physics now.

But what if the 3D development speed stays as it was during the last 3 years?
Then you'll be able in 2009 to program 3D games you could create with other Basics in 2001.

And to make it clear ... this is no afront against the people who develop PB ... they are friendly and helpful as you find in no other company !
But a little reminder to concentrate on the stuff people have had in mind when they buy or bought the Program

@Thade:
i agree with you in some points! But please remeber some things. The maingoal of Purebasic is to write fast, easy and small applications (tools) and maybe some 2D related stuff! BlitzBasic, DarkBasic are mainly designed for creating 2D and 3D games! In the meantime you can do some app stuff with another version of blitzBasic, the so called BlitzPlus afaik! First there was just Blitz, then Blitz3D, BlitzPlus, now BlitzMax and whats next? BlitzHyper? I really liked and respected the work of MarkSibly (since i worked with Blitz on the Amiga and bougt the first version of BlitzPC, but since followng the history in the past i think mark is really sucking the money from his users!) Why does he not did one version (maybe with compatible plugins for GUI, 3D i.e? This really really sucks... even, some sources dont work between another version! This is not what i would call a nice language!

I think each basic language has its own features and its a question what the user/coder want to do with this language! For coding appz only, i would aboslutly consider to use PureBasic... For doing 2D and 3D stuff i would use PureBasic too... even, since i try and learn more and more about OpenGL coding with PureBasic and i have really to say it cant be more easy as this... This gives me full control of OpenGL and the compiled programs are small and afaik from some benchmarks - they are a lot faster as any Blitz compiled exe...

I have to agree, the Orge3D engine may be a fine engine but its not so well implented for easy coding or converting sources for example from Blitz to PureBasic. I still learn more and more about OpenGL and having more flexiblity and speed for appz, 2D and 3D effects with PureBasic as any Blitz version can give me!

I really liked the 3D stuff in Blitz3D and they are really easy to use and you could create impressive stuff in small time... Now you have to spend some time for creating to your OpenGL commands and you can have the same and even more flexible as Blitz... so just think a moment about this...

PureBasic = mainly for appz coding...
Blitz**** = manily for 2D and 3D coding...

I am sure we would have a nice "comercial" sound and maybe 3D engine in PureBasic, if Fred would do the same "bad" thing as Mark did... what i mean... PureBasic, Pure2D, PureGUI, Pure3D, PureAPI and so on... i think everybody know what i mean...

I really like the work of Fred (or just the PureTeam) and respect the work what they are doing, even you only have to pay once (until now)...

Big respect to fred, fr3ak... keep on your great work

oon I found out, that its a great tool to write DLLs for Blitz3D to add the missing stuff there

Afaik, its not allowed to use PureBasic to build just simply DLL wrappers of PureBasic commands to use in Blitz or any other language as long as you are using any PB lib... its only legal, if your lib is completly based on your own routines using directly API calls...!? If Blitz is so great as you say, i dont understand the reason to use PureBasic and creating Wrapper DLL for Blitz

I remember someone (loooong time ago), managed to use the Blitz3D engine inside PureBasic! (have tested it and it really worked fine but i cant remember where i found it nor who did it, because some years ago)

But please remeber some things. The maingoal of Purebasic is to write fast, easy and small applications (tools) and maybe some 2D related stuff!

Who said this? Where did you read that stupid interpretation?
I read something of making professional Games and Applications! And "Easy and high quality 3D support based on OGRE"
And for instance Restricted Area is a good example that with very much effort you can achieve something great with Pure Basic, too.

Afaik, its not allowed to use PureBasic to build just simply DLL wrappers of PureBasic commands to use in Blitz or any other language as long as you are using any PB lib

Oh boy, how I love that saucy sentense: Afaik, its not allowed, blah blah... Its not allowed to contradict elder people (and I bet I am older than you)
And who is forbidding this? What is programming a DLL for? To hide it in your home? Did MS forbid to write dlls with C++ or VB and use it in other programs? Anyway, no-one forbid it to me when I bought PB and that's important. And if, I wouldn't care anyway! Because many paragraphs in EULAs are wishful thinking ... the judges in many cases have different views on such things. So don't behave like little children (my ma has forbidden ... )
You have to pay for it, shall not steal it. Don't copy and sell it. And if you would sell PB completely as a dll you'd hardly win a trial. But no-one can stop you to use the stuff you need and add it to a bigger program... did you get that? Because there is no difference if you develop a PB-Program and sell it ... or if you develop a B3D-Program and add some PB stuff to it and sell it! With even a little amount of intelligence easy to understand... To sell dlls made with Pure as a standalone that's something complete different!

If Blitz is so great as you say, i dont understand the reason to use PureBasic and creating Wrapper DLL for Blitz

And finally getting silly? I don't see any reason to give a serious answer to that.

managed to use the Blitz3D engine inside PureBasic!

Are you really understanding what I am talking about? Or are you on dope? What has this to do with my noting the fakt, that there was not much improvement on the already lousy enough 3D stuff during the last 3 years ... Have you seen the OGRE demos? The Stonehenge Demo? If not, load them down .. you may get an impression after you came down from your trip of what I mean.

But I grant you one thing ... the price of PB compared to all extra Blitz stuff you mentioned ... you are right in this case.
Pure Basic price politics were not very clever ... not for the developer and in the long run not for the customer either. Because a never ever pay again for any update means that there could be none. So we can be glad that PB is still developing.

On the other hand. Why shouldn't they change their view here? There are more popular people doing the same every day. After any election you notice that politicians "forget" what they have promised (rising taxes and gasoline prices, etc. the opposite of what you heard weeks before)

PB 4.0 in my view with a good 3D Ogre implementation would allow to charge a higher price ... and for old users to pay an additional amount of cash!
You cannot expect to get DX9 stuff and effects for nothing...
I don't and I hope most of you agree at least at that:
We should be fair to the developers and even encourage them to change their price politics.
They owe it ... it gives them more motivation ... and we'll benefit from it in the end.
Especially if 3D is usable as promised and expected! And most important: as it could be!

Hi Thade.

You have opinions, fair enough. But tone it down a bit. Courtesy is both cheap (costs nothing) and valuable (earns much).

It is fair enough to argue strongly - but a bit immature to make personal attacks or putdowns.


From your "elder" ...



* Noah, go cut me a switch - another one of you youngsters is getting upstarty *

Hi Dare2
Read again ... I just edited some lines while you wrote ... maybe the ones you mean ?

And btw ... its not my fault, that I am one of the oldest here ...

And ... you behave as you want ... I behave as I want ... ok?
And if I think that someone read what I wrote but didn't understand or someone writes in a programmers forum but is not able to think logic and cannot read between the lines (since no-one wants to write long novels and no-one wants to read them) then he must live with it to get little slaps that he remembers next time.

I have some sympathy for Thades view as I also bought PB years ago with the aim of creating cross-platform opengl apps. I've now given up.

Thade wrote:And ... you behave as you want ... I behave as I want ... ok?

No. There are rules in social life - this also applies to posting on forums.
As english isn't your mother's tongue this all may be a language related issue
yet phrases like "are you on dope?" could be considered offensive pretty fast.
Please spend a minute thinking about it. Thank you.

traumatic wrote:There are rules in social life - this also applies to posting on forums.

True, but i vote for a expression-free forum. And free means free. Even a forum like that seems impossible to find nowadays, but may be i will create one (perhaps the first one on the world!!??); sorry for those who are susceptible.

Thade wrote:My opinion is: If you put your 4.0 version on the market with this lousy 3D stuff all your other improvements were in vain, because as a 2D tool its already better than the best... but without a usable, programmable 3D you could as well throw it out completely.

Thade is an exigent user. Me too. And this fact is very very benefactor.
I mean, Fred should feel very proud to have very exigent PB users.

And well, my opinion about 3D in PB is near the Thade's one.
Fred and PB team want to do all 3D stuff to be easy for the programmer, but if he focused to simply use direct wrappers of the Ogre fuctions there would SEEM more difficult at the beginning for a programmer, but after the programmer know how Ogre and quaternions do work, all the 3D programming would be wonderful. I (we, i think) would enjoy that a lot.
But on the other hand, i understand the wish of PB team to do an easy language.
My opinion, and my wish: to create a section inside the PB 3D lib to have access to all the OGRE stuff directly; while maintaining the current way to program 3D stuff.

Psychophanta wrote:And free means free.

Hi Psychophanta, the difficulty with "free" in that sense (as in "a right") is that it carries a huge weight of responsibility, otherwise one person's freedom becomes another's oppression. An example:

Person "A" should be free to have wild and noisy parties every night. Person "B" who lives next door should be free to have peace and quiet. If one of the two can enforce their "right" the other is oppressed.

The answer is compromise.

I, like you, have anarchist tendencies. (That is true anarchy, not nihilist or the destructive label that is stuck on anarchy). The first rule (paradox, having rules) that you learn in an "anarchist society" (which is almost but not quite another paradox) is that there needs to be consideration for others and compromise. Otherwise, no society. Instead you have a gathering of ego-centric types, and eventually those who can will dominate and the rest will live by the rules the dominants lay down.


Hi Thade. Perhaps search out DracFlamLoc's post on where this community is heading? BTW, I actually have some agreement with some of your points re dll. But as to the delivery, what can I say? Traumatic wrapped it up very accurately and precisely.

dmoc wrote:I have some sympathy for Thades view as I also bought PB years ago with the aim of creating cross-platform opengl apps. I've now given up.

I'm the same. Ive always expected big things with 3D in PB as IMHO it could be the best language for games creation. But like Thade said, everything has been on hold regarding the 3D support and to be quite honest it might as well not be there. Yes you can load a model and wiz it around the screen but thats about it. I've completely given up on using PB for 3D stuff, it's pretty useless.

I too have been asking for over 3 years now for some updates to expose more of the OGRE api but nothing has happened.

I agree with everything Thade said in his original post, they are harsh words but they needed to be said.

Purebasic could stamp Blitz and puny DarkBasic into the floor if the 3D support was better and Fred would become rich through the thousands (yes thousands) of users he would recieve as a result of it!

Dare2 wrote:

Psychophanta wrote:And free means free.

Hi Psychophanta, the difficulty with "free" in that sense (as in "a right") is that it carries a huge weight of responsibility, otherwise one person's freedom becomes another's oppression. An example:

Person "A" should be free to have wild and noisy parties every night. Person "B" who lives next door should be free to have peace and quiet. If one of the two can enforce their "right" the other is oppressed.

The answer is compromise.

Well, i understand, of course, but i meant "expression-free", just to talk or wrote freely, nothing more.

Psychophanta wrote:Well, i understand, of course, but i meant "expression-free", just to talk or wrote freely, nothing more.

Yeah, I read too much into it. My bad.

Freedom is a tricky concept at best. It's defined differently by different people, that's a given, but it's also defined differently by the same people on different days. Go figure. I'm for being allowed to express any thought or idea, including criticisms, but when a poster starts attacking the person instead of the idea, it's not a positive contribution any more.

I'm not an expert at all on 3D stuff, I guess the reason is I'm just not interested in it that much. I like 2D games and the effects you can achieve with zooming/rotating and transforming objects, and to me PureBasic is plenty strong enough in those areas. So my opinion isn't going to be worth much. But when is the last time you hired a professional to do a job and he showed up with one tool in his box? At some point you have to stop and consider how much sense it makes to try to make one product that pushes the envelope in all areas. Personally I'd like to see the 3D stuff removed from PureBasic altogether and Fantaisie Software produce a second product that focuses on that. Then they could pull the stops out and make a truly leading-edge set of 3D tools and offer it under separate license. My 0.02, anyway.