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How about this then...

Biometric security on software

Assuming you get around all the obsticals with obtaining it and registration and privacy etc. "You" can install the game where ever you want however many times you want, whenever you want but only you can play it as it needs your biometrics (fingerprint reader or whatever). Or perhaps you get a family pack for 10% more with 4 registrations or something...

My question is: Would taking this step be better than current DRM or worse?

(Assume that a biometric reader was also standard usb device costing $10 that any software would use in this little perfect world example.)

Tipperton wrote:I agree, the problem I see with the current debate though is that people are ranting against DRM in all it's forms which is really misdirecting where they should be focusing there energy.

Thats because DRM is being used abusively in all its forms. Registering a game for example after you buy it should be just that, registering the game.

It should not be; "We decide if you can use it or not and don't care if you paid good money for it and if we want information of any type from your computer then you agreed to that when you installed and we can install anything we want and hide it from you and never tell you what its actually doing and we can stop your use of the product any time we want for any reason what so ever and we don't care if you can continue to use the product or not because you don't have any rights and we already got the money anyway so the hell with what you want as its what we want that only matters because when you installed the product you agreed that we can do what ever we want."

And thats whats happening to, and forced on, legitimate customers by big content.

case wrote:note that the drm system of microsoft not working properly as it's easy to get a pirated version of the os

I've heard it suggested the fact MS activation is so easy to bypass has resulted in Windows being installed on 90% of PCs in China. Now MS are using Windows Genuine Advantage to harrass PC users into making an on-line purchase of a license. If that works MS will have gained great market share and at greatly reduced distribution costs.

the.weavster wrote:

case wrote:note that the drm system of microsoft not working properly as it's easy to get a pirated version of the os

I've heard it suggested the fact MS activation is so easy to bypass has resulted in Windows being installed on 90% of PCs in China. Now MS are using Windows Genuine Advantage to harrass PC users into making an on-line purchase of a license. If that works MS will have gained great market share and at greatly reduced distribution costs.

MS just released an update that caught some illegal users of windows in China, it only caught 1000. So it may be that everyone else bypassed, or cracked, or hacked, or something. Actually they aren't really harassing them, the update causes the desktop to turn black every 60 minutes and display a warning that the windows they are using is not genuine, but thats all it does basically and they simply change their desktop back to what they want. Maybe more of an irritation. It doesn't stop them from using windows and doesn't cause any data loss. MS is actually being very nice to them in my view. There is an article over at ARS that tells about it.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20 ... upset.html

The chineese market already enjoys prices on MS software thats up to 90% cheaper then the rest of the world in some cases.

If it had been here in the U.S. they would have already swooped in with an anti-piracy assualt team and it would have been big headlines that some 12 year old kid was hauled off to piracy jail. (not really, but there would have been some type of action)

In contrast, in this article: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20 ... y-day.html - You will notice that lawsuits were filed in the U.S., but none were filed anywhere else, although they did push initiatives and enforcement actions to combat pirated and counterfeit software across 49 countries. So the difference is really the market and how much you want to distance that market from future sales potential. Even when faced with facts and proof anti-piracy efforts by big content is not about piracy at all, its about making money, and thats exactly what DRM is about, making money.

pdwyer wrote:How about this then...

Biometric security on software

The only problem I see with that approach is on a computer shared by a family every member would have to be authenticated for each program they will be allowed to use.

Better would be something like a trusted platform module that can be easily moved from one machine to another or installed inside the box for security.

@SFSxOI

You are so closed minded that you will not consider any form of DRM as acceptable that all you are doing is trying to spread your blind hatred, so why don't you just leave the discussion? I'd really like to have a sane discussion about DRM without all the blind hatred.

I wish these forums had an "ignore user" capability so I wouldn't even have to see your crap. This applies to a few other members as well, if you aren't willing to discus this topic in a rational civilized manor and just want to spread your hatred of DRM without adding anything to the discussion, don't post anything and just leave.

maybe ms realises that if windows is not free there then they will all start out with linux at home as kids, never learn to use an MS OS and then the corporations will go linux there since thats what the users know.

For MS it's about getting as much money out of places like china as they can for as long as they can. they aren't policemen

"Free" meant lots of people have it, now with new versions they add nag ware. It's like fishing, pull too hard on the line and you lose the fish. Different kind of fish, different strategy. For americans, as you say, action, they only really respond to force and violence

As Joel on software says:

Nobody likes feeling ripped off: people would rather buy a $199 product for $99 than a $59 product for $79. Theoretically, people should be rational. $79 is less than $99. Realistically, they hate feeling like someone is ripping them off. They'd much rather feel like they're getting a bargain than feel like they're getting gouged.

You're just pissed that they pay less than you

Hi! Didn't read everything, but thought that I might put in some comments of my own as well...

Can anyone even say that something is free? When going back to the first personal computers, software that was "free" was actually proprietary, but documented software. Later, free software meant software that was given at no cost. Now, free should mean software that is given at no cost, but the source code for it must also be distributed.

Recalling a little bit of the open-source vs free software debate, the situation can not be described in a few sentences. Software and PCs are like politics. Different people have different opinions. There's no problem in that, except when these politicians start politicking for their opinions. In this case everything gets messed up and the actual problem is left unsolved.

DRM is simply Digital Rights Management. It is not restricting your so-called freedom. What DRM does is to protect various parts or areas of a software or game in the way which the developer wants. So it's simply an extra layer of protection to keep people from doing something the developer did not want people to do. So saying "DRM sucks" is like saying the opinions of all developers suck. There are many different ways of DRM. Like many have already said, it's more seen in multimedia like mp3s and DVDs.

The actual problem of DRM is that in order to keep the user from complaining, DRM is most likely designed in a transparent fashion. So the user does not see it, but it is there. This is what actually leads many users to complain about. However, if a particular software application or game was advertised to include a particular protection scheme, it would potentially destroy the sales of the company.

Let's take an example of "DRM". I think the most obvious would be Spore. Ok, so what's inside the EULA? http://www.gametreeonline.com/SporeEULA.pdf
Let me quote:

Technical Protection Measures. Our Software uses access
control and copy protection technology. [..]The first end user of this License can
install and authenticate the Software on a set number of
machines which may vary by product.

I checked out Spore and prior to installation you have to agree to the EULA. So, instead of the normal habit to just click on "I agree", people should spend the 5 minutes to read the most obvious sentences of the EULA. Instead of what EA expects people to do, they go on and complain about SecuROM installing itself transparently or that installations are limited to a finite number. Why agree to the EULA in the first place if that's the end result? Also, many stores do refund your money in case you are not satisfied. If not, you should have asked the possibility in advance.

Like many other things, asking in advance is the most effective way to get more satisfied. Isn't it? Cheers, Irene.

The one other thing that MS does to encourage (but not force) having a legitimate copy of Windows, is that many downloads and Windows Update are not available unless you can pass the genuine advantage validation test.

This is very much like one of the illegitimate complaints in Stardock's customer report about only being able to get update through a single source and needing a specific program to get them. This is just the company wanting to be sure that people getting updates are legitimate users. A fair request IMHO.

One thing that bugs me even more than restrictive DRM practices is internet back channel use without your knowledge or consent.

I just picked up EA's new game Dead Space and as usual for EA the installer handled activating it. Being primarily a single player game I was surprised when I launched it that Windows firewall popped up a message that it was trying to access the internet! Why does it need to do that and if it's something legitimate, why did it not tell me or ask first before doing it? I blocked it.

Tipperton wrote:@SFSxOI

You are so closed minded that you will not consider any form of DRM as acceptable that all you are doing is trying to spread your blind hatred, so why don't you just leave the discussion? I'd really like to have a sane discussion about DRM without all the blind hatred.

You're rather assuming others are viewing your contribution as 'sane'.

Let the man have his say or it's you who should leave.

Tipperton wrote:

pdwyer wrote:How about this then...

Biometric security on software

The only problem I see with that approach is on a computer shared by a family every member would have to be authenticated for each program they will be allowed to use.

Better would be something like a trusted platform module that can be easily moved from one machine to another or installed inside the box for security.

@SFSxOI

You are so closed minded that you will not consider any form of DRM as acceptable that all you are doing is trying to spread your blind hatred, so why don't you just leave the discussion? I'd really like to have a sane discussion about DRM without all the blind hatred.

I wish these forums had an "ignore user" capability so I wouldn't even have to see your crap. This applies to a few other members as well, if you aren't willing to discus this topic in a rational civilized manor and just want to spread your hatred of DRM without adding anything to the discussion, don't post anything and just leave.

Your correct, I will not consider any form of DRM in its current state and use as acceptable. I will consider reasonable and reliable alternatives that are actually designed to combat piracy rather then make money and are not intrusive, usurping, and penalizing for legitimate consumers in their implementation, purpose, intent, and function. I don't have any blind hatred, its not blind at all, I simply see whats actually happening.

I haven't done anything here that was not rational or civilized for the forum. I haven't broken any rules for the forum. Everything I've posted (said) here is within the rules outlined at: http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtopic.php?t=28690

I'm sorry you feel offended in some way by my posts, however, because someone disagrees with you in some way or puts forth information that refutes or counters what you posted certainly does not warrant such an attack as you have posted here. I didn't call anything you posted 'crap', yet you said what I posted was 'crap' - I never displayed any 'blind hatred', yet you use what seems to be some sort of 'hatred' towards what i've posted or me in your post (quoted above). I'm a member here just like you, and I think its improper of you to attempt to tell me to leave. By your standard then if it refutes or disagrees with anything you say then its not rational and civilized? By your standard then if it refutes or disagrees with anything you say then its not welcomed or doesn't add anything? I don't see where you have the right to ask or tell me to not post anything and leave, instead, I believe your the one that should apologize for your unwarranted and unprovoked attack. But i'm not asking for an apology nor do I expect one, in fact I would perfer to not have one. You don't need an ignore button, you can ignore on your own and simply choose not to reply or respond.

I'm sorry you feel offended, but I will not conceed to your displayed attitude.

@irene

to accept the EULA you have to put the cd in the drive, to do so you have to open the box, and if the box is opened you can't have any refund.

this is because of 'piracy' problem, you can setup the game, put a crack and go for a refund, the vendor have no clue on what you really did with the software, and did you expect vendor to trust you if the develloper don't trust you more than a thief ?

the main problem with drm are that they don't stop anyone to use a pirat version of any software, it makes the user experience WORST than any pirated version.

if devellopers wan't to sell more software they must start to change they're mind about customers...

what is better ?
selling a game to someone that can use it without hassle and that will maybe buy the next one.

or selling it to someone and cripple the software with drm that made the game slower, spy the user, prevent him to use his computer as he wan't and that maybe because he don't like this stop buying software ?

as a develloper i'll go for the first one.

copy protections, drm call them like you wan't, imho MUST not make a product WORSE than any pirated version or the battle can't be win, personnaly i'm not going to give my money to someone that sell me a deffective product because he think i'll copy it and give it away for free.

also think of this, if you plan to steal something will you ever buy it ? there's no point .

It is not restricting your so-called freedom

how do you call something that prevent you using virtual drives or some software because you might use them for bad reasons ?

how do you call some software that don't allow you to reinstalll it on you're computer because you changed you're hardware ?

sorry but it's my right to use nero/alcoohol 120 ,deamon tools or a dissasembler if i wan't to. also if i wan't to changes my mainboard, then 1 week later the cpu and a week later my hard disk it's also my right, i'll not going to let anyone control when or what i may change on my pc to be abble to play a game..

case wrote:to accept the EULA you have to put the cd in the drive, to do so you have to open the box, and if the box is opened you can't have any refund.

You are right, but civil law of Finland says something else. One has to stand up for their rights. It depends on where you live and most likely from whom you will buy, but as I said, asking in advance is great practice. Actually, I think that contacting EA customer support in advance would be a great idea as well.

case wrote:how do you call something that prevent you using virtual drives or some software because you might use them for bad reasons ?

What's the point of virtual drives anyway except to mount DVD video images, game ISOs or other stuff as well that is clearly related to piracy? Sure it can be annoying to have the DVD/CD *always* in the drive. I wouldn't expect to have a game running directly off a gaming console without having the game disc in the console itself. And yes, there are some games like Final Fantasy which do store data on the HDD and don't rely on the game disc alone.

case wrote:how do you call some software that don't allow you to reinstalll it on you're computer because you changed you're hardware ?

Well, one has to be prepared for that anyway if changing hardware.

case wrote:sorry but it's my right to use nero/alcoohol 120 ,deamon tools or a dissasembler if i wan't to. also if i wan't to changes my mainboard, then 1 week later the cpu and a week later my hard disk it's also my right, i'll not going to let anyone control when or what i may change on my pc to be abble to play a game..

Sure, nobody said you must not use your favorite tools, but the use of a disassembler violates the licenses of many games and applications, so you should be careful about what you are disassembling. Good luck if you change your motherboard and believe that Windows will magically boot as if nothing happened. You most likely need to reinstall Windows as well and that means everything else too.

Look, I have an audio processing application, Melodyne from Celemony_. When I log in to my account, it tells me that I have one activation left of two possible activations. So, should my hard disk crash, I would need to install everything again and that will make use of the other available activation for Melodyne. What if it happens again? Customer support is there, they will be happy to reset my account. Actually, I did that once when I had my hard disk failing and yes it happened twice. Celemony_ didn't ask any questions, they just answered positively that they will reset my account. Current situation? I use Melodyne on a PC that has had its motherboard changed at least 4 times since the first time I installed Melodyne.

Don't know what kind of support EA has. If it sucks, then there's not much you can do. There are millions of games though, nobody said you must play Spore. There most likely is another game, probably even at no cost that you'll like more than Spore (or any game for the matter).

Know your enemy and know them well ~___~''
Cheers, Irene

What's the point of virtual drives anyway except to mount DVD video images, game ISOs or other stuff as well that is clearly related to piracy?

nope... it's not related to piracy, piracy is a possible usage, but i alway use virtual drives to try before burn my 'personal content' dvd i'm making.
i was in a theatre troup so to try before burn the dvd of the performance i did i used this kind of software. it's very convenient

saying that virtual drives are related to piracy is as wrong of saying that knives are related to murders ...

and it's for all kind of software, as a develloper you might use dissasembler for purpose other than piracy i don't use myself a dissassembler on pc but i did when i used to code in assembly on my atari ST.
the point is not that you can do bad things with some software, the real point is that something prevent you to use what you wan't on you're pc, it's unnaceptable to have anyone tell you what is good practice or not

if you don't tell this limiting you're freedom i don't see how to call it

what will you do if tomorow celemony stops they're activities and go bankrupt ? is this acceptable to have a software that you buy unusable because of a copy protection that lock it to some hardware/server ?

i guess you'll be upset and that next time you'll not buy any software that use this kind of activation sheme.

I think that contacting EA customer support in advance would be a great idea as well.

are you kidding ? when i buy something i don't want to spend an hour at the phone for that if everyone phones to EA prior to buy something i'm sure they stop replying anyway

Don't know what kind of support EA has. If it sucks, then there's not much you can do. There are millions of games though, nobody said you must play Spore. There most likely is another game, probably even at no cost that you'll like more than Spore (or any game for the matter).

nobody tells me to play spore that's right but EA certainly don't tell you that in fact you don't buy the game but just rent it until they decide to stop authentification servers or deciding to not adding you new installations limits...

it's not fair for customers , think that some day i'll maybe have to use a crack to play spore because the legal version will not run anymore...

case wrote:i was in a theatre troup so to try before burn the dvd of the performance i did i used this kind of software. it's very convenient

You got my point. The point is, you can use virtual drives to do virtually anything that can help productivity of your own. However, you used a virtual drive to preview content of your own before the final copy. So it is yours from the ground up, you can do vitally anything you want, because it is your work.

A game equipped with a copy protection scheme that disables the use of virtual drives is not your own work and I would not expect other's works to function in a way that they can be utilized with software that could be under normal circumstances be used to enhance the productivity of my own work.

Under this complex logic lies a very simple reason: control. Let's say you have that performance on DVD. Maybe you want to lend it to your friend. Do you think it is fair if your friend rips the DVD and distributes it with his/her friends without you knowing? I guess not because you made the hard work to put it on DVD. Problem is that companies cannot be asked about such things. "May I copy this game to have it on my friend's PC?" Yeah right. DRM is there to control this.

Face it Irene, people like case and SFSxOI don't like DRM for only one reason, it's hinders their ability to do what THEY want with a game or other piece of software regardless of what the OWNER allows or doesn't allow.

There are valid uses for drive virtualization software but the fact remains, its most common use is related to piracy so they specifically target those programs. Its also not that they don't want the program on the computer, they just don't want it running while you play the game.

Back when I used virtual drive software I actually had it set up so that it did not run when Windows started and only ran it when I needed it. Not a single game complained about it being there even though they were looking for it because they were only checking to see if it was running and not if it was installed.

And yeah, if you change your motherboard you'll have to reinstall Windows which means you'll have to re-activate it. Do that more than a couple of times and you'll have to call Microsoft to do it. Even if you manage to avoid the re-install you'll still have to re-activate.

I see no difference between Window's limited activations and EA game's limited activations, so I have to wonder at the validity of their complaints since they are not creating the same todo about Microsoft and Windows as they are EA and their games.

These people IMHO are hypocrites. If they were really serious about not buying or using software with DRM in it, why are they using Windows, or Office, or ....???

This one point alone IMHO completely discredits and renders invalid all their arguments against DRM.

For my part, I'm completely ignoring both of them since neither one has even the slightest interest in an honest discussion of DRM, its strength and weaknesses, pros and cons, alternatives, etc., they just want it gone and nothing less than that is acceptable to them.