PureBasic Forums - English

...was started by Microsoft way over 10 years ago.

Yes, MS has a very long and well-documented history of failure in the tablet market and the phone market.

You may think what you want, it is OK. Just note that not everybody agrees with your point of view.
Sounds little bit like you are deeply disappointed by Microsoft, maybe you hate them. Don't know
the exact reason, though.

I haven't expressed an opinion and choose to stick to facts. Personal opinion, I have always liked Microsoft. I am just always honest about them and their failings. And yes, it has been sad to watch Ballmer make one boner move after another.

Kuron wrote:Nobody is buying Windows 8.

Microsoft sold over 100 million licenses for Windows 8 already. The 100 million mark was passed in May already.
That was 5 month ago, and could easily be 140 or 150 millions by now. More after general Windows 8.1 availability, that's for sure.

(I don't think sales figures will explode after 8.1 - it will grow more for sure, but many Windows 7 users still don't see
a reason to pay money for the upgrade, because most are very happy with their Win7 systems - only a special low upgrade
price could motivate such users)

Kuron wrote:I haven't expressed an opinion and choose to stick to facts.

Sure, it is not 2 billions like they may have dreamed, but over 100 million is very much, if you come down to earth.
Your opinion seems to be that over 100 million is nothing, nobody is buying Windows 8. I wouldn't call it a fact
that so many millions is nothing.
I admit it is not you only. The web is full of guys that think sales figures less than 1 billion within 6 month is just failure.


I also think with desktop OS sales, we will never reach again the Win95 and Win98 boom. It was the time when
many casual users bought a PC for the very first time and internet use exploded from a few millions to some hundred
million users. PCs are established now, so is the internet. The very big boom (same for smartphones, tablets) only happens once
if something is really new, never ever seen before... and everybody wants it immediately. After that short boom, sales
figures are always much lower.

Danilo wrote: Microsoft sold over 100 million licenses for Windows 8 already.

Don't forget many of the licenses sold are stuffed through users' throats via OEM installation on the hw one buy.

Some of these licenses are sitting idle on some computer in some storage room, some has been removed by the user to "downgrade" to win 7.

Probably a 60% of that 100 million number is actually irritating (woops, I mean working for) people actually using it.

If you can get past the possible "back doors" in these closed operating systems, Windows 8.1 is a marked improvement over Windows 7 and will do very well by its adopters.

skywalk wrote:If you can get past the possible "back doors" in these closed operating systems, Windows 8.1 is a marked improvement over Windows 7 and will do very well by its adopters.

Most Linux and BSD distros are technically "closed source" considering they allow binary only drivers from vendors like Nvidia. They have the same potential of having "back doors" considering they have almost unregulated privileges to hardware, kernel, and userland and are susceptible to trade regulations and government restrictions..

It's lazy to say Linux and BSD are safe and open, and especially lazy to say they dominate the majority of software markets.. Sorry if this offends all the experts in this thread..

PB wrote:> I am not convinced Linux is ready 'for the masses' unless pre-installed.

I'm also a Linux "dummy" but found installing Ubuntu itself to be easy.

> It's just not user friendly.

I totally agree with this aspect. Once Ubuntu was installed, I found that
I couldn't watch MPG videos or do other basic computer stuff, which was
shocking. I tried installing an MPG codec, but it was so complicated that
I swore off Linux forever. There certainly wasn't some Software Manager
that made installing the codec easy. Also, the fact that people have to
even explain about a Software Manager is proof that it's too complicated.
Software should work intuitively; you shouldn't be needing some old guy
on a forum somewhere telling you, step-by-step, how to install stuff.

In my example, I should've been able to do a Google search for an MPG
codec for Linux, download it, double-click it, and it's installed. Just like
on Windows. Until that day comes, Linux will never become mainstream.

I think the problem is that many CODECs aren't pre-installed by default - it's a licencing issue and the fundamental flaw with *free software* - truth is all OS's are as complicated as each other. In the case of Windows, MS handled much of the annoying complexities before hand. With Linux, more of that complexity is pushed onto the user, the advantage being that a more efficient / stable OS with fewer vulnerabilities can be installed with Linux, whereas Windows has tons of redundant code preinstalled.
IMO Linux on the desktop is a non-starter for casual users, although perversely Linux in the form of Android is romping away with the lead for the most casual users of smartphones and tablets. One day, I'm sure Android (or a desktop derivative) will appear on desktops too. It's all in the packaging, I guess.

Zach wrote:Linux will never penetrate into the home-user market, as a broad-based competitor for Windows until it accepts the fact it has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia and starts taking medication for it.

There are too many distros, and this is the single problem preventing Linux from gaining a consumer identity. Great strides have been made in the user interface and user experience department but Linux needs to do several things to successfully compete with Windows. Choice is a good thing, but people fail to realize that too much choice can also make you weak. You have nowhere to focus your efforts, you can't find common ground with others, and in the end you just end up confusing end-users and providing a poor or marginal experience.

But Linux has completely penetrated the home market. It's called Android and it's on your phone, your tablet, possibly your TV - maybe even your toaster

Ultimately, Android is just another Linux Distro.

Actually, Unix (and derivatives) have already beat Windows, 'cos I think your iPhone / iPad and MAC are also BSD Unix based

Danilo wrote:

Kuron wrote:Indeed, Windows was actually good back then and a decent product.

If you think Windows 98 was good, Windows 7 and Windows 8 are superior.

Kuron wrote:]Microsoft was the top dog in the industry. Times have changed. Apple is the top dog.

AFAIK Microsoft Windows is still the most widely used operating system for Desktop PCs, at work places and at home.

Thing is MS may well have the largest installed desktop base - but how can MS re-capitalise that? Users have to continually pay for upgrades to keep the money flowing into MS. If you have an old Windows XP machine you probably bought that 8 years ago and bought a few non-MS tools/apps since then and some music and movies.
MS aren't really in the paid-content business, so they need you to upgrade and folks are either sticking with XP or looking at Android / iOS Tablets to watch porn / cat pics / browse eBay / lie to their friends on FaceBook - you just don't need a PC to that stuff.
Mark my words MS is a big company with big costs and their traditional revenue streams are drying up - they have to do something remarkable product-wise or change significantly.

naw wrote:I think the problem is that many CODECs aren't pre-installed by default - it's a licencing issue and the fundamental flaw with *free software*

With some distros (e.g. PCLinuxOS) they are preinstalled, with others (e.g. Ubuntu) it's just a matter of ticking a check box during the install, worse case scenario you have to install them using the package manager. I'm struggling to see what the fuss is about.

naw wrote:IMO Linux on the desktop is a non-starter for casual users

In the last few weeks I have installed Ubuntu Studio on old laptops for my sister, daughter and nephew. All of the aforementioned only have very basic computer experience and yet none have had any issue using it.

tj1010 wrote:Most Linux and BSD distros are technically "closed source" considering they allow binary only drivers from vendors like Nvidia. They have the same potential of having "back doors" considering they have almost unregulated privileges to hardware, kernel, and userland and are susceptible to trade regulations and government restrictions..

Correct, they allow the use of closed source software if that's what the user wants. Freedom of choice is good. In the case of NVidia you can choose to use their own closed source drivers or you can use the reverse engineered (and thus probably less efficient) open source Nouveau drivers.

Interestingly as a result of Valve announcing Steam OS NVidia have announced they will start offering technical advice to the developers of the Nouveau drivers so the efficiency gap is likely to narrow. Maybe eventually they'll have an epiphany and open source their own drivers.

Intel's drivers for Linux are open source off the bat. The best plan for appreciators of open source is to support companies that support open source. Hopefully the Prism scandal will act as a catalyst that will make more companies reveal their source code in order to prove to their customers they are trustworthy.

tj1010 wrote:It's lazy to say Linux and BSD are safe and open, and especially lazy to say they dominate the majority of software markets.. Sorry if this offends all the experts in this thread..

You're not doing well so far. Why not try coarse insults instead?

Zach wrote:Get over its fear of commercialization. Until the hard-knocks within the FOSS community get it through their heads that money is not evil, and that they are crippling their own cause by doing everything they can to champion "Free" software over potential money-interests (and subsequently pushing that view onto users that "it must be free")

Samsung, Intel, HP, Red Hat, Texas Instruments, Qualcomm, ARM, etc... aren't a bunch of hippy dipshits who sit around all day smoking weed and playing the bongo drums, these companies support and contribute to Linux/FOSS because it makes commercial sense for them to do so. Sure these companies might not be interested in producing a desktop distro themselves but the FOSS-is-not-commercial argument is a complete red herring.

Mark Shuttleworth has commercial plans for Ubuntu too and they go well beyond the server.

the.weavster wrote:Hopefully the Prism scandal will act as a catalyst that will make more companies reveal their source code in order to prove to their customers they are trustworthy.

Just because the source is open doesnt mean there is nothing hidden inside. It's quite easy to hide some sneaky code in a huge source code and giving the user a wrong sense of safety. One example of that was been found in Googles Chrome.

Your opinion seems to be that over 100 million is nothing, nobody is buying Windows 8.

I am not stating an opinion. Nobody is buying it, out of those 100 million how many are legitimate sales? Remember that a PC comes with Windows 8 preinstalled. You do not have a choice in the OS, unless you exercise the downgrade option to Windows 7.

I admit it is not you only

It is Microsoft too. Windows 8 has been such a failure, it was the final straw that got Ballmer fired. Not even the CEO that looks like a phallus can survive causing his company to lose 34 billion dollars in one day.

I think the problem is that many CODECs aren't pre-installed by default

At least Ubuntu is up front about it. It is rather dildonic to download something you know doesn't include certain codecs and then complain that the codecs are not included.

I have installed Ubuntu Studio on old laptops for my sister, daughter and nephew. All of the aforementioned only have very basic computer experience and yet none have had any issue using it

Indeed, Ubuntu and Mint are far more user friendly for newbies than any other OS right now. Heck, I give newbies a Ubuntu or a Mint CD/DVD they can even install it and be up and running unlike with Windows where they start pulling their hair out looking on various sites for drivers for their hardware and trying to install third-party software.

Samsung, Intel, HP, Red Hat, Texas Instruments, Qualcomm, ARM, etc... aren't a bunch of hippy dipshits who sit around all day smoking weed and playing the bongo drums

Having worked for HP in the San Francisco Bay area, I have to disagree with their inclusion in the above list. LOL

In case that you don't have one already,

based on the book cover graphic shown above, this is a UBUNTU program launcher icon that I made for the compiler.

Is linux ready for the masses? As Android - sure!
As a server for daily business - sure!
As a desktop - sure!

In fact, linux has been ready for a long time. The problem with the desktop is that the market doesn't want it. By that, I mean there's not a single killer app that would make people leave Windows or OSX in droves - and without one, it's always going to be that way. If you like, the market has spoken - and linux lost. No shame in it, or blame of any kind.

The linux folks are hoping that touch systems will change this. Personally, I think Android have a pretty strong hold on that already. Valve have announced Steam OS, on a proprietary linux based machine is the future for gaming. If you look closer at that, for example, look at the 100 or so games currently on offer by Steam - you have to confess to be hard pushed to believe in it. I think for now it's simply posturing, as Valve are not so happy about Windows 8 App store taking a slice of their business.

So my opinion, linux for the desktop is over - the market has decided. No matter how superior or innovative the product may be, without the magic app everyone wants or needs - it' just a show case.

@username wrote:Is linux ready for the masses? As Android - sure!
As a server for daily business - sure!
As a desktop - sure!

In fact, linux has been ready for a long time. The problem with the desktop is that the market doesn't want it. By that, I mean there's not a single killer app that would make people leave Windows or OSX in droves - and without one, it's always going to be that way. If you like, the market has spoken - and linux lost. No shame in it, or blame of any kind.

The linux folks are hoping that touch systems will change this. Personally, I think Android have a pretty strong hold on that already. Valve have announced Steam OS, on a proprietary linux based machine is the future for gaming. If you look closer at that, for example, look at the 100 or so games currently on offer by Steam - you have to confess to be hard pushed to believe in it. I think for now it's simply posturing, as Valve are not so happy about Windows 8 App store taking a slice of their business.

So my opinion, linux for the desktop is over - the market has decided. No matter how superior or innovative the product may be, without the magic app everyone wants or needs - it' just a show case.

Oh but you are oh so wrong my friend. With AMD's release of Mantle, game designers like EA already stated they want to push and develop games for linux. Since Mantle will cut out OpenGL and DirectX entirely, and is a marginally faster API. The latest linux kernel (3.12) alone got a huge boost in performance for AMD based cards. Linux desktop is only starting to enter the gaming era. Linux will start looking more and more like the primary OS of choice in the coming years. Especially once a big game developer like EA drops a large game like Battlefield 5 for the platform. Then you have Steam OS, and other game developers that will follow suit. Eventually there may come a time where Windows is no longer used on such a large scale.

So Linux dying out as a desktop OS? I think Linux is just starting to finally get the recognition it needs to become a widely used platform. And it's all thanks to AMD. All we can do is sit back and see how Mantle turns out, and the OpenCL improvements promised (OpenGL won’t be bottlenecked by the API anymore, meaning that gamers will hit HW limits first). Then wait and see if a large game publisher will drop a big title game on the platform.

In conclusion, as a desktop OS linux isn't really doing so good. But with all the talk from AMD and Steam, the OS could become a potential superior gaming platform. Which would raise its use a primary desktop OS marginally.