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djes wrote:... So, let construct something strong and good...

I M P O S S I B L E

And here is an example why: The other day I read on BBC News something Putin said.
The Russian president has vowed not to let Russia be weakened by "social shocks".

"We cannot accept anything that weakens our country or divides society..."

And what is seen as a dividing factor will be decided by HIM.

This is just an example why this:

djes wrote:... So, let construct something strong and good, you know how it works the best...

will never work!

Everybody thinks he knows how it works the best...

Mankind will never agree to something strong and good.
Sure one fine day they will claim they achieved Peace and Security for every one on earth, even if it's non existent.
And the next day stocks will go up again... and all is good again!

That's the circle of life as we know it

Hey, Diogenes, get out of this body !

My home is my barrel

Well, my home is Norway, and thats ist, get lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMowaZ3I90o

NSM, from Kongsberg, sea skimming, stealth, has extremely powerful electronic countermeasures,
and will outmanouvre any CIWS in the terminal phase.. After it hits your ship, it will know what ship
it takes on and count it way through each steel side until it detonates in the munitions depot.

Ah, violence... The last resort of a losing argument

Utopiamania, socialism does work in Norway, because there is an abundance of natural resources per capita that is not available in many other countries. Also because of the lack of immigrants, legal and otherwise, which puts a strain on other social welfare states, such as Italy, France, England, etc. As those social welfare states collapse, people will move to Norway and other Scandinavian states that are more prosperous. Norway already has exorbitant prices on everyday goods, and those prices will have to rise as the welfare state grows bigger.

Somethings you should think about, the sooner the better:

Why Liberalism/Socialism will not succeed:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
6. All social welfare states eventually run out of other people's money.

RichAlgeni wrote:Utopiamania, socialism does work in Norway, because there is an abundance of natural resources per capita that is not available in many other countries. Also because of the lack of immigrants, legal and otherwise, which puts a strain on other social welfare states, such as Italy, France, England, etc. As those social welfare states collapse, people will move to Norway and other Scandinavian states that are more prosperous. Norway already has exorbitant prices on everyday goods, and those prices will have to rise as the welfare state grows bigger.

Somethings you should think about, the sooner the better:

Why Liberalism/Socialism will not succeed:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
6. All social welfare states eventually run out of other people's money.

Ehm reply to 5. statement: WHIP THEIR LAZY ASSES , till they cry for mercy of work !!!

John Stossel just did a special report on this for Fox News, where he interviewed people about finding jobs.

Lots of "There are plenty of jobs, but its easier for them to collect unemployment", as well as lots of "Well I can stay at home and collect unemployment, and I get by on that so why should I go back to work?"

At one of my jobs, we have fairly high turnover. Because every time we bring someone in, they are unreliable, or they constantly arrive late, or they don't do the job the way they are supposed to, skipping a bunch of stuff, etc.. and we can never find ANYONE who wants to work weekends. I could tell you guys all kinds of stories about the lazy shits who come through here, it really is sad/angering.

Its $8/hr for 3 hours in the moring cleaning a store before opening. We had one person there who was homeless, living at the salvation army. Would bring her kid in and leave her in the office because apparently you can't leave them alone there, or there was nobody to "watch her", even though her "kid" was like 13 years old... Yeah she was homeless but at least she had a cell phone!

Couldn't clean for shit either, and when the column mirrors on the sales floor were pointed out to her?

"there are mirrors?"

You would think in this economy people would be beating down the door for an interview. Nope, good ole' Uncle Sam is gonna take care of them.

RichAlgeni wrote:Utopiamania, socialism does work in Norway, because there is an abundance of natural resources per capita that is not available in many other countries. Also because of the lack of immigrants, legal and otherwise, which puts a strain on other social welfare states, such as Italy, France, England, etc. As those social welfare states collapse, people will move to Norway and other Scandinavian states that are more prosperous. Norway already has exorbitant prices on everyday goods, and those prices will have to rise as the welfare state grows bigger.

Somethings you should think about, the sooner the better:

Why Liberalism/Socialism will not succeed:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
6. All social welfare states eventually run out of other people's money.

The whole problem is that the concept of humans generating money is outdated. It does not apply any longer. The truth is the main part of production is done my machines. Automation generates money, but it does not pay for the people it puts out of job.
We need a new concept that takes into account that there are not enough jobs for all people because it's the simple truth. We have to pay for them, well automation has to pay for them.
And this will get much worse in the future.

Thorium wrote:The whole problem is that the concept of humans generating money is outdated. It does not apply any longer. The truth is the main part of production is done my machines. Automation generates money, but it does not pay for the people it puts out of job.
We need a new concept that takes into account that there are not enough jobs for all people because it's the simple truth. We have to pay for them, well automation has to pay for them.

Humans still design the machines, sell the machines, install the machines, maintain the machines, and repair the machines.

It seems silly to say there is not a need for humans because there are machines that do things that humans used to do. To say that there are not enough jobs for all people is to say that there is nothing that is needed by anyone anymore. Since people still need goods and services (that machines don't do) then there are things for people to do (if they will) and for which people will be willing to compensate them (if they are able).

Demivec wrote: It seems silly to say there is not a need for humans because there are machines that do things that humans used to do. To say that there are not enough jobs for all people is to say that there is nothing that is needed by anyone anymore. Since people still need goods and services (that machines don't do) then there are things for people to do (if they will) and for which people will be willing to compensate them (if they are able).

I didnt say there is no need for humans, there is just no need for all of them.
You can't put 100% of people into service work, there is no need for that much service. I actualy work in industry, we develop and build our own machines. The machine is designt by one engineer, is build by 6 mechanics, 2 electricians and 1 programmer. That whole process takes 6 to 12 month. After that it's operated by 1 operator. 1 mechanic and 1 electrian maintain 6 machines. One machine replaces at least 40 humans for a time periode of 10-20 years.

And that trend is going up.

I dont get why people dont want to see that. Here in germany it's actualy pretty hard to get a job, because there are less jobs than humans. I had no work for 1 year because i didnt find a job. And i was willing to move to a different town for a job.

RichAlgeni wrote:Utopiamania, socialism does work in Norway, because there is an abundance of natural resources per capita that is not available in many other countries. Also because of the lack of immigrants, legal and otherwise, which puts a strain on other social welfare states, such as Italy, France, England, etc. As those social welfare states collapse, people will move to Norway and other Scandinavian states that are more prosperous. Norway already has exorbitant prices on everyday goods, and those prices will have to rise as the welfare state grows bigger.

Somethings you should think about, the sooner the better:

Why Liberalism/Socialism will not succeed:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
6. All social welfare states eventually run out of other people's money.

Well said Rich and worth repeating! How the current world fiscal crisis can be blamed on anything but excessive government spending and meddling (socialism) is beyond reason.
I'm just afraid someday some of these governments will convince a majority of the population that they must nationalize almost everything to solve the problems they created in the first place ...
Perhaps France, based on the latest election results? I find that election amazing, given what France went through the last time they tried socialism in the 70's ... it was a disaster!

Thorium wrote:I dont get why people dont want to see that.

So the patent office can stop issuing numbers because there is nothing left to design?
Thorium, I will agree with you when machines cost nothing and have an imagination.
Did you know that I must pay 4x the machine produced food to guarantee I do not ingest excessive toxins or worse, empty nutrition. Ergo, organically produced. In fact, it is often I cannot even find these hand made goods, for they are in increasing demand.

The same holds true for art and music or a really good massage.
Maybe you can build an $8000 chair that can replace an expert's hands, but I'll take the expert.

The better argument is that we have gone astray in this world.
The natural order of things is for creators and consumers.
All of them human beings.
We seem to be stuck on creating consumers.

skywalk wrote:

Thorium wrote:I dont get why people dont want to see that.

So the patent office can stop issuing numbers because there is nothing left to design?
Thorium, I will agree with you when machines cost nothing and have an imagination.
Did you know that I must pay 4x the machine produced food to guarantee I do not ingest excessive toxins or worse, empty nutrition. Ergo, organically produced. In fact, it is often I cannot even find these hand made goods, for they are in increasing demand.

The same holds true for art and music or a really good massage.
Maybe you can build an $8000 chair that can replace an expert's hands, but I'll take the expert.

The better argument is that we have gone astray in this world.
The natural order of things is for creators and consumers.
All of them human beings.
We seem to be stuck on creating consumers.

Not everyone is a creater and we just dont need so many creators. I just postet how many people you need to create a machine that replaces a multiply of people needed to create it and maintain it.
You would not take 40 experts and not the CNC machine. The machine is so much cheaper in the long run. In the car industry we have whole production lines which are monitored by a few people and the main work is done by machines, producing one car every hour. Do we need 10000 people designing cars? No we dont.

France is in deep trouble, and so is Italy. I have relatives in Italy, it's very sad.

I'm afraid that things will have to get worse before they get better. I just hope people will make the right choice this November in the US.