PureBasic Forums - English

Heh.. I have Orion. Fun to play with but like many things, I suck at using it

Danilo wrote:There must be a reason why many companies write great software for Windows and MacOS but simply ignore Linux.

That's where the most money is to be made. More users = more potential money. Plus have you seen the price customers pay for Apple stuff?
Linux is for more specialised stuff and therefore not as widely used as the others.

MachineCode wrote: I reckon it's because of what I posted above. It's not an OS for everyday people. It's written by geeks, for geeks. I can't even play an MP3 without downloading additional codecs? Sorry, I don't have the time nor the motivation to learn that sort of rubbish.

And just look at all the support in these forums for getting PureBasic to run on Linux. Things like http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtop ... 15&t=49018 and http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtop ... 15&t=47545 scare me off even trying to use PureBasic under Linux! And look at "help" like this:

Shardik wrote:Solution:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install libxxf86vm-dev

What the? Means nothing to me. With Windows, I just run Setup.exe for PureBasic and it works. Too easy.

I tried installing PureBasic on Ubuntu, it was quite long compared to a normal Windows/Mac install.

This picture seems really relevant to it



Okay it's not exactly like that but the google searches and sudo apt-get stuff is
It might not be difficult but it's way longer than conventional OSes

MachineCode wrote:I can't even play an MP3 without downloading additional codecs?

MP3 is a patented format and requires some hefty licensing fees. Even those of us developing games with PB have to pay a licensing fee if we want to distribute MP3s with our game no matter what OS we target.

That said, many Linux distros have a version that includes the MP3 codecs.

MachineCode wrote:And just look at all the support in these forums for getting PureBasic to run on Linux. Things like viewtopic.php?f=15&t=49018 and viewtopic.php?f=15&t=47545 scare me off even trying to use PureBasic under Linux! And look at "help" like this...

You made a misstatement in one of those threads. PureBasic does not create standalone EXEs on Windows. EXEs you create with PB require the VC++ runtime and other "runtimes" which are common to all Windows programs. Usually, these will already be installed on Windows. The most you should have to update is the VC++ runtime.

DirectX 9 is now the default for the sprite commands and DirectX 9 is not installed by default on any modern version of Windows. Even hardware OpenGL support is not installed by default because so many systems only ship with the graphics drivers provided by Windows.

the.weavster wrote:If I want to install 5 applications on Windows I'd probably have to go to 5 different websites, download 5 different installers and then run them one after the other.

You would also have to likely download updates to .NET, and perhaps the VC++ runtime. If it is a game, you may have to update DirectX.

I generally avoid anything .NET just because I don't like spending 20+ minutes downloading and updating .NET for an application (or game) that has no business using .NET in the first place.

the.weavster wrote:With Ubuntu I'd open Synaptic, tick 5 check boxes and click 'Apply' (this is also all you need to do to install codecs).
Any missing dependencies, including GUI libraries, are installed for me.

How is Windows easier?

Don't forget how easy installing Linux is. Stick the CD/DVD in, boot from the drive, click on a few prompts and it installs and when it installs everything works and your computer is ready to use.

So much nicer than installing Windows where after you have Windows installed, and verified (to make sure the copy that Microsoft just sold you is not a counterfeit), you then have to download and install drivers for every hardware device you have connected to your system.

You also have to download and install security software to protect against the vulnerabilities built into the OS.

Danilo wrote:Just check the audio software and seriously compare it with something like Reason and Ableton Live.
It makes me laughing, but I am just a dumb-ass anyway.

I agree, Windows is superior for audio production. Where else can you find the manufacturer of an OS that will intentionally break the majority of audio software and audio hardware by the changes they made to DirectSound and DirectMusic when they introduced Vista. Although the software eventually caught up, many of us with thousands of dollars invested in audio hardware are stuck using XP (which is NOT a bad thing).

I guess there is a reason so many use Macs for professional audio production.

That said, I am an old fart, most of my personal audio recording is done on my 16-track 3M M-79 using traditional outboard gear. I only use the computer for mastering the final mix.

Installing windows is a lot easier than linux and its just not trur that you need
to download drivers for every hardware. Windows comes with thousends of drivers. Also drivers can just be installed using windows update without the need to actualy
know what hardware is build in.

I dont like linux because it is just to complicated. I am a fan of easy solutions. I think easy is genius. With linux i allways got problems which could only be solved using cryptic commands or recompiling something.

That said i dont realy like Windows as well. There just is no better option for me. The OS i liked the most was Mac OS befor they moved to a unix kernel. Mac OS 7 was beautyfully easy in any way. Installing software, just drag it over, ready. No setup needed. Installing system extensions: justdrag them in the system folder, ready.

The current Mac OS is a joke, its not only complicated but just has no workflow at all, its only designt with style in mind, not productivity.

Abou the performance of smartphones: ARMs are realy powerfull and you can do mch more with them than they are used for right know. Many ARM applications are slow just because of poor programing and fancy graphics stuff no one needs for seriouse work.
Just look at emulators to see what they are capable of: N64 emulation with dynamic recompilation and software 3D emulation on a singlecore cortex a8.

The real problem is the size, without some kind of docking station and a proper monitor working on them is a pain.

Kuron wrote:That said, many Linux distros have a version that includes the MP3 codecs.

Therefore, Linux is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're going to get. Such confusion over which version to use, just to play your music, isn't a good sign. And it's not just MP3s either: Ubuntu v10.10 doesn't play MPG or AVI videos that I threw at it, either. It's all too much hassle, and if I think that way when testing it... then how many other newbies think the same? That image of Windows vs Linux installs is spot-on, too. Good one!

Kuron wrote:DirectX 9 is now the default for the sprite commands and DirectX 9 is not installed by default on any modern version of Windows.

Define "modern", because Win XP comes with DX9 installed.

@MachineCode - yes I had the same frustration with my first MP3 on Ubuntu :roll: anyway once downloaded all is good - but truth is users have an 'expectation' that certain things simply must work immediately. Truth is my mum & my wife use Ubuntu laptops without problems - and I too would move to Ubuntu *if* the Apps that I need were available on Linux/Ubuntu (better reliability /much better performance) - but they're not.
Yes there is WINE and that works *mostly* but not always. Unfortunately, *mostly* works is not good enough.

If only MS were to drop Windows and concentrate on App development, the world would be a better place, *mostly*

Anyway, the problem for Linux is choice - a little choice (maybe 2 or 3 comparable products) is good - it drives competition and quality. Too much choice is very bad, it dilutes effort and makes choosing *the best* product very difficult - especially when you have to invest the time into reviewing each one individually, sometimes the sheople choice is the best one. I think it is also more difficult developing for Linux, especially when you don't have 8Hrs /day and the security of income to support it.

I can't remember who made the comment about Linux install & management being more difficult than Windows (perhaps a few did) anyway, truth is it isn't. Ubuntu installation itself is just as easy as Windows - all HW instantly supported on each of the 5 machines I installed onto - no problems. But afterwards things become a bit more complicated for the user (for instance installing additional MP3 codecs onto Ubuntu).

The reason why is simple - truth is Ubuntu could have included those codecs and absorbed the cost and the complexity themselves, but they shifted the complexity towards the user and that is the way (and the fault) with Linux. Linux is no more complex than Windows or OSX, the difference is simply that the user is more exposed to the complexity. OSX is a Unix derivative OS with similar roots to Linux (also a Unix derivative) but OSX is generally regarded as the most user friendly OS. But OSX & Linux have similar roots - it's just that Apple invested more time in protecting the user. OSX *could* have been a Linux based OS instead of a BSD Unix based OS - in which case, I think we wouldn't have been having this discussion at all.

naw wrote:I think it is also more difficult developing for Linux, especially when you don't have 8Hrs /day and the security of income to support it.

Most distros I've tried come with Python already installed and there's an abundance of add on modules for it in the repositories too. PyGTK is Canonical's recommended way of developing for the Ubuntu app store. As Cython matures this way of developing is going to get even better.

naw wrote:The reason why is simple - truth is Ubuntu could have included those codecs and absorbed the cost and the complexity themselves, but they shifted the complexity towards the user and that is the way (and the fault) with Linux.

Some distros (e.g Mint, PCLinuxOS, CrunchBang) come with the codecs already installed.

Thorium wrote:Also drivers can just be installed using windows update without the need to actualy
know what hardware is build in.

This is the best way to screw up a Windows install. The drivers MS distributes often do not properly support the hardware, or are grossly outdated.

MachineCode wrote:Ubuntu v10.10 doesn't play MPG or AVI videos that I threw at it, either.

Container formats often use compression technology that is patented and requires licensing.

MachineCode wrote:Define "modern", because Win XP comes with DX9 installed.

No, it doesn't. It comes with DirectX 8.1 installed. XP was released on October 2001. DirectX 9 was not released until December 2002. XP is not modern by any stretch of the imagination.

Kuron wrote: The drivers MS distributes often do not properly support the hardware, or are grossly outdated.

Sorry mate but my experience is quite the opposite.

After buying a Win7-64bit computer I wanted to install drivers for my 10 year old printer (still works fine).
The printer manufacturer did not offer 64bit drivers for my printer and looking online for a solution didn't help either.
So I walked my way through some dialog boxes on Win7 and saw a button allowing me to download a list with even more printers.
Long story short after a few minutes I got a list with tons of printers listed and to my surprise I found my printer as well.
Installed the 64bit driver and since then I'm a happy that I still can use my old printer.

As I said the printer manufacturer was no help but MS was.

You might have a different experience but this is mine...
...and I stick to it

fsw wrote:

Kuron wrote: The drivers MS distributes often do not properly support the hardware, or are grossly outdated.

Sorry mate but my experience is quite the opposite.

I said "often", not "always". I have had a similar experience with a printer that is even older than yours.

Kuron wrote:This is the best way to screw up a Windows install. The drivers MS distributes often do not properly support the hardware, or are grossly outdated.

Kuron wrote:I said "often", not "always". I have had a similar experience with a printer that is even older than yours.

Not even 'often', all the PCs I've reinstalled Windows 7 on with different hardware have never had a problem with the provided drivers. The only thing they lacked were minor functionality or settings but basically worked.

Drivers in no way screws up a Windows install, they can easily be removed too. It's not like they mess with the registry and replace windows system files that causes the OS to need to be reinstalled.


I think you're just sensationalizing it

From your experience of windows and it 'needing to install drivers for every piece of hardware' I'm thinking maybe you haven't installed windows in quite some time, as it's never been that way for quite a while.

moogle wrote:From your experience of windows and it 'needing to install drivers for every piece of hardware' I'm thinking maybe you haven't installed windows in quite some time, as it's never been that way for quite a while.

And from the picture in your previous post that you labelled 'really relevant' it's obvious you haven't installed anything on Linux since Adam was a lad.

the.weavster wrote:

moogle wrote:From your experience of windows and it 'needing to install drivers for every piece of hardware' I'm thinking maybe you haven't installed windows in quite some time, as it's never been that way for quite a while.

And from the picture in your previous post that you labelled 'really relevant' it's obvious you haven't installed anything on Linux since Adam was a lad.

Well..

a) I have

b) The picture is just a funny joke which whilst not fact is very similar to what I and many users coming from another OS felt when using Linux.

c) It's not slightest obvious that I haven't touched Linux as I didn't say that picture is a factual representation of what Linux is like.


If you're offended about the picture or me making a joke about (possibly) your favourite OS then I can't help that

The way it is set itself up for that.

My 2 cents worth. I have used Linux occasionally for a few years. To me it always had that clunky feel like It was stuck somewhere between W95 & W98 era's, but I liked the idea of not having to worry too much about viruses, etc.
Since my days with Debian sarge I moved onto Ubuntu at some stage & somewhere around 8.xx my update manager broke & I just never bothered to fix opting instead just to use it to surf as is & have just stuck with Windows for most things since. A month or 2 back I decided to fix it & so did an upgrade to the 10.04LTS version of Ubuntu.
What an awesome surprise this was for me. Linux Ubuntu has come so far in the last couple of years.
I went beserk installing all the compiz 3D eye candy, etc & still have a machine which runs noticeably faster than my Win 7 OS & uses about 1/4 of the RAM to do this. ( Same machine in dual boot )
Anyway, the last couple of months have seen me once again become pretty much a fan of the 10.04 version, but after playing with the 11.xx Unity I just hope they get that all sorted before it gets a stable release.
I have just been writing a small app in Windows to look after & monitor some server software which has been crashing quite consistently for many months, so have been on Windows most of the last week & am now very happy to be back to being able to run with Linux again, simply because of the smoothness of this system I am currently using.

So far as synaptic package managers & difficulties in installing software on Linux, they now have this thing they call a 'Software Center' which is basically a dumbed down version of the synaptic manager & makes installs for common software as simple if not simpler than installing stuff on Windows. - I also find this software centre thing reminds me quite a bit of the Android app market.
I am also an Android user & the thought of being able to use Ubuntu as a full version from my phone is definitely very appealing to me. ( Use my Notebook as well as ubuntu from my phone & I am effectively dragging my own little network around the country side with me...