Actualy, the number of users has nothing to do with it. Decent documentation, that's something than no longer exists.
I suspect a Vorlon ship erased that particular knowledge from the human brain, somewhere around 1987.
I know you've all heard it before....
Re: ..
NoahPhense wrote:I don't know what to say. I'm used to the way things are.. but even if I
bitched about it, I don't think it would change anything.
Mostly, and I'll place money on it.. that when people need help, they
make a post, and people get on it.. I know that's not what you're looking
for.. you're looking for full docs. Well, an example for every command,
that does not exist. But, if you have the time, why dont you head up a
group that will do just that..
Im not trying to be smart.. I'm just bringing a little reality to the
darkness.. pretty docs are not -- and will not come over night..
And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them.. I guess mostly
because I've learned to move on without pretty docs.. and that's probably
because I've used worse... I have no complaints at this point, these forums
are kickas$, and there are a lot of very tough programmers in here that
shoot out answers without even thinking about it..
l8r
- np
I think the point is, that without the 'pretty' docs, PB just isn't going to grow because not everyone has the time to search for everything.
I realize some might consider me to be kvetching about this, however I think this complaint has been pretty constant.
And, I belive several people have already tried to go forward with some sort of enhanced docs, or primer already. How successful has that been?
I'm aware that the forums have a number of top-rate programmers here, and this is in no way a cheap shot at them or Fred.
While its great to see people dedicated to PB, it kind of begs the question of why the docs are still so poor at this time.
I'd love to use PB, as its phenomenal and I'd like to support Fred. However, I don't have the time to use the search button x times a day, or test variations of a theme on many commands.
I can pick up a book on VB, and even if nowhere close to PB in performance, I can probably get my application up and running in under a week. I just had my dept. order me one on VB6 to test this out.
If this doesn't work, then I can look at PowerBasic.
If anyone wants to get into a flame fest, save it.
I'm a hobby programmer at heart, however I need a lang. higher than C to do some work related programming, and need to do it expeditiously. If PB is simply not ready for prime time, then I guess I have to accept it.
However, if the expectation is that docs are not important in the overall equation, then I expect PB to remain a small niche. Because what effectively happens is that all the newbies and others are interested in a good Basic-like language are going to be stymied by the 'uniqueness' of PB. To go along with the crowd and tell people that they should be happy with what they've got is not doing PB any service.
Making it dificult to learn the language isn't going to make PB more popular, no matter how fast it is.
I realize I am coming off a little hard, and expect some of it is because I am not familiar with Windows programming. My problem.
However, PB is sold as making it quick and easy to program Windows apps. And, the documentation belies that. PB's problem.
Re: ..
[quote="koehler"][/quote]I originally said many of the same things.
This is one of those chicken/egg dilemmas.
Does Fred implement enhancements to the language
first or the documentation first?
The included documentation has come a long way since
I first found PureBASIC. It does need improvement for
the language to appeal to a wider audience.
Maybe an ernest effort to more thoroughly document
new things as they come out (complete with examples) and
then, as he creates time, update the commands lacking?
It's Fred's venture, so he decides the pace for
both the language and the documentation.
I really shouldn't even be saying anything here.
I've never even attempted to write a language.
Thanks Fred.
Joe
This is one of those chicken/egg dilemmas.
Does Fred implement enhancements to the language
first or the documentation first?
The included documentation has come a long way since
I first found PureBASIC. It does need improvement for
the language to appeal to a wider audience.
Maybe an ernest effort to more thoroughly document
new things as they come out (complete with examples) and
then, as he creates time, update the commands lacking?
It's Fred's venture, so he decides the pace for
both the language and the documentation.
I really shouldn't even be saying anything here.
I've never even attempted to write a language.
Thanks Fred.
Joe
peace
[pI 166Mhz 32Mb w95]
[pII 350Mhz 256Mb atir3RagePro WinDoze '98 FE & 2k]
[Athlon 1.3Ghz 160Mb XPHome & RedHat9]
[pI 166Mhz 32Mb w95]
[pII 350Mhz 256Mb atir3RagePro WinDoze '98 FE & 2k]
[Athlon 1.3Ghz 160Mb XPHome & RedHat9]
koehler:
PowerBasic is certainly a professional language and is very very stable (and fast and small and has better than PB or Blitz documentation), but lacks any sound\music or built-in graphics commands. If you want to do PB kind of games, you'll need a third party library such as Fastgraph (very fast gfx, hand coded in asm), and for sound\music you're on your own...
As far as Pure Docs go, though, forget writing a book. Fred's user base doesn't justify the trouble\expense for that.
But since an updated manual WITH user guide has been supposedly in the works for some time now, I think it's about time SOMETHING of their result is shown...even if it's not "finished" (what manual ever is?)
So, let's assume that no one is actually working on a replacement manual (hopefully this is not true...):
- How long would it take to write with an index, examples for every command, 'related commands', etc from scratch? Three months? Six?
- Who is most qualified to do this?
Hopefully 4.0 will come out of the gate with everything in tow (major bugs gone, docs looking REALLY good, 3D commands in a much more mature state, etc).
Updates for PB seem to be about 2 to 3 months apart, so 4.0 could be out in less than 3 months... (3.90 is right around the corner, I know).
<sigh>
Russell
PowerBasic is certainly a professional language and is very very stable (and fast and small and has better than PB or Blitz documentation), but lacks any sound\music or built-in graphics commands. If you want to do PB kind of games, you'll need a third party library such as Fastgraph (very fast gfx, hand coded in asm), and for sound\music you're on your own...
As far as Pure Docs go, though, forget writing a book. Fred's user base doesn't justify the trouble\expense for that.
But since an updated manual WITH user guide has been supposedly in the works for some time now, I think it's about time SOMETHING of their result is shown...even if it's not "finished" (what manual ever is?)
So, let's assume that no one is actually working on a replacement manual (hopefully this is not true...):
- How long would it take to write with an index, examples for every command, 'related commands', etc from scratch? Three months? Six?
- Who is most qualified to do this?
Hopefully 4.0 will come out of the gate with everything in tow (major bugs gone, docs looking REALLY good, 3D commands in a much more mature state, etc).
Updates for PB seem to be about 2 to 3 months apart, so 4.0 could be out in less than 3 months... (3.90 is right around the corner, I know).
<sigh>
Russell
*** Diapers and politicians need to be changed...for the same reason! ***
*** Make every vote equal: Abolish the Electoral College ***
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*** Make every vote equal: Abolish the Electoral College ***
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docs
Amiga5k,
I agree wrt Power, however what about people who looking to actually program apps that are not games, or A/V targeted? Currently, my little project is just such a one, and frankly the normal support docs I would expect would have allowed me to build my app within a couple of days.
One thing not being taken into account here is time. Time is money. The more time it takes for people to figure out how to do something with PB, the more it actually costs them. From that perspective, paying a bit more for a product is easily worth it in the end, as one wouldn't need to waste time searching for answers.
And, I think there is certainly a niche market that someone could tap quite easily to make several thousand $$. I had the 3.72 Word docs printed and bound at a Kinko's like place, for about $10. I would expect a bulk order of 100 or so could be done by many small print shops for an even more reasonable price. Not sure if an ISBN and all that would be necessary.
I'm still a little surprised that there isn't a bit more detail on creating moderately complex windows apps, as thats what I expect the majority of new people would be drawn to PB for. I'm currently looking at Freaks ImportLIB tool, and don't have the faintest clue about things like enumeration, whether its required or not, etc, etc.
If one has the time to spend ferreting out the hows and why of PB, then it is indeed a great product for the price. However, if you are coming from a non-Visual programming background, then its not quite the value, considering the additional time required to get up to speed.
I just don't see a lot of sense in saying that we need more commands, when most new people already have so many questions about existing ones. Sigh... I guess I'll have to see how far I get with the VB6 book this week. Not thrilled with using it, however if I can spend 2-3 hours on it, and get something up and running, then it'll have served its purpose.
Hope 4.0 has taken some action to address this problem though, as more than a few people seem to find it an impediment.
I agree wrt Power, however what about people who looking to actually program apps that are not games, or A/V targeted? Currently, my little project is just such a one, and frankly the normal support docs I would expect would have allowed me to build my app within a couple of days.
One thing not being taken into account here is time. Time is money. The more time it takes for people to figure out how to do something with PB, the more it actually costs them. From that perspective, paying a bit more for a product is easily worth it in the end, as one wouldn't need to waste time searching for answers.
And, I think there is certainly a niche market that someone could tap quite easily to make several thousand $$. I had the 3.72 Word docs printed and bound at a Kinko's like place, for about $10. I would expect a bulk order of 100 or so could be done by many small print shops for an even more reasonable price. Not sure if an ISBN and all that would be necessary.
I'm still a little surprised that there isn't a bit more detail on creating moderately complex windows apps, as thats what I expect the majority of new people would be drawn to PB for. I'm currently looking at Freaks ImportLIB tool, and don't have the faintest clue about things like enumeration, whether its required or not, etc, etc.
If one has the time to spend ferreting out the hows and why of PB, then it is indeed a great product for the price. However, if you are coming from a non-Visual programming background, then its not quite the value, considering the additional time required to get up to speed.
I just don't see a lot of sense in saying that we need more commands, when most new people already have so many questions about existing ones. Sigh... I guess I'll have to see how far I get with the VB6 book this week. Not thrilled with using it, however if I can spend 2-3 hours on it, and get something up and running, then it'll have served its purpose.
Hope 4.0 has taken some action to address this problem though, as more than a few people seem to find it an impediment.
A big problem with having a physical book written is that PB changes constantly. That is, it changes much more often than professional languages such as VB, and there isn't as much of an emphasis on keeping old programs' code intact(not a bad thing for an evolving language like PB). With each new PB release, commands are added, changed, and deleted, breaking the code of programs which use those commands. If a book was written and distributed, the explanations, descriptions, and examples using those commands would also be worthless to anyone who bought the book and has an updated version of PB.
Soulfire,
I'm not overly interested in a book per se, but documentation in general. A Word doc would suffice. But, I fail to see why people keep saying that command change, so documentation is sort of useless. If a command changes, then you change the existing doc to suit it. Rather simple.
The problem is, as you get more, and more, and more commands, it then becomes even more daunting to take that task on.
As part of testing of beta's, are the beta testers actually testing/QA'ing Fred's new code? If so, I would expect that there would be tons of code snippets around that could be tossed in to the docs.
And, I hate to say it but if Blitz can do it, and do it pretty nicely, I fail to see why PB can't. http://www.blitzbasic.com/b3ddocs/comma ... 3d_a-z.php
In actuallity, I'm getting tired of the excuses being given all the time.
If we were just leeching off of the beta, then I would agree that our complaints should be 'prioritized'.
But a number have payed, and the complains about the documentation have been very clearly expressed by a number of people. And most of them seem to be non-novice programmers.
Fred, can you please tell us if there is going to be a substantial change in the docs for 4.0? I need to do a lot more programming for some tasks at work, and I need to know whether or not PB is going to help me, or hurt me. I appreciate the million and one directions you are probably pulled in. However I'm at the point where I need to stop wasting time that could otherwise be more productively spent learning/programming in Powerbasic, VB, Delphi, maybe even BlitzPlus.
Don't mean to be harsh, however if the PB team isn't interested in supporting it customers with decent documentation, then it can't do what I bought it for. Might be good to check in on once in a while for hobby type stuff, but it isn't going to help me at work.
I'm not overly interested in a book per se, but documentation in general. A Word doc would suffice. But, I fail to see why people keep saying that command change, so documentation is sort of useless. If a command changes, then you change the existing doc to suit it. Rather simple.
The problem is, as you get more, and more, and more commands, it then becomes even more daunting to take that task on.
As part of testing of beta's, are the beta testers actually testing/QA'ing Fred's new code? If so, I would expect that there would be tons of code snippets around that could be tossed in to the docs.
And, I hate to say it but if Blitz can do it, and do it pretty nicely, I fail to see why PB can't. http://www.blitzbasic.com/b3ddocs/comma ... 3d_a-z.php
In actuallity, I'm getting tired of the excuses being given all the time.
If we were just leeching off of the beta, then I would agree that our complaints should be 'prioritized'.
But a number have payed, and the complains about the documentation have been very clearly expressed by a number of people. And most of them seem to be non-novice programmers.
Fred, can you please tell us if there is going to be a substantial change in the docs for 4.0? I need to do a lot more programming for some tasks at work, and I need to know whether or not PB is going to help me, or hurt me. I appreciate the million and one directions you are probably pulled in. However I'm at the point where I need to stop wasting time that could otherwise be more productively spent learning/programming in Powerbasic, VB, Delphi, maybe even BlitzPlus.
Don't mean to be harsh, however if the PB team isn't interested in supporting it customers with decent documentation, then it can't do what I bought it for. Might be good to check in on once in a while for hobby type stuff, but it isn't going to help me at work.
No major changes planned to the doc for v4.0 (may be examples will be added to most of the commands, but that's it), so I guess you better have to switch on VB right now.
Last edited by Fred on Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
maybe in a couple of years i have the expierence to write a fine new basic-compiler which would namend 'DocBasic' . It has only simply maths (Integer) and console-output, but also offers a 1300 pages handbook.
For every If-Condition you have to write THEN and the compiled EXE size is not under 8 MB (DOC's included in every EXE) .Guaranted !
if someone is interested in this project, PM me
For every If-Condition you have to write THEN and the compiled EXE size is not under 8 MB (DOC's included in every EXE) .Guaranted !
if someone is interested in this project, PM me
SPAMINATOR NR.1
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Froggerprogger
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I think the docs are OK as they are. (I nearly never found a critic)
But the main critic in this topic was the only few examples in the docs I think ?
It should be relative easily possible to load up a HTML-version of the chm-docs to a server and add a note-mechanism to each command that stores the notes in a SQL-database e.g.
So it would work in this way http://de2.php.net/manual/de/function.echo.php
Everybody could feel free to add simple examples or professional ideas/workarounds.
Another possibility would be to just create a new phpBB-forum in the style of the chm-help with all the libnames as forum titles "2DDrawing", ......... including all their functions as topics. The first topic-posting could be the original help-file-text, and may be followed by comments from users. (It is possible to configure phpBB, that user cannot create topics, but just answer to them.) So this one would spare programming and would support a crossallover-searchfunction (cool for searching for commands)
Ok who's gonna do it ??
But the main critic in this topic was the only few examples in the docs I think ?
It should be relative easily possible to load up a HTML-version of the chm-docs to a server and add a note-mechanism to each command that stores the notes in a SQL-database e.g.
So it would work in this way http://de2.php.net/manual/de/function.echo.php
Everybody could feel free to add simple examples or professional ideas/workarounds.
Another possibility would be to just create a new phpBB-forum in the style of the chm-help with all the libnames as forum titles "2DDrawing", ......... including all their functions as topics. The first topic-posting could be the original help-file-text, and may be followed by comments from users. (It is possible to configure phpBB, that user cannot create topics, but just answer to them.) So this one would spare programming and would support a crossallover-searchfunction (cool for searching for commands)
Ok who's gonna do it ??
%1>>1+1*1/1-1!1|1&1<<$1=1