PureBasic Forums - English

@Weavster - Yes, inevitably, we are moving towards a Post PC era for many reasons, until recently, only choice was MS Windows & Apple Mac. Most bought into MS because that's what they use at work and its familiar - so everyone has 2 PCs (one at work, one at home). Companies only bought PCs because Apples were too expensive an initial outlay (longterm costs Apple probably cheaper cos MS Win requires lots of support) - of course there was OS2, but nobody liked that apart from some of the banks.

Now there is LOTs of choice, Apple Mac is a little cheaper and Mac sales are being driven by iPhone iPad. Linux is displacing both Windows Servers at low : high end and Unix Servers at the low end, so more people are accepting Linux. Linux on the desktop currently only works for TechnoPhobes or Geeks - I put Ubuntu onto my wife's laptop and my Mums laptop - neither are computer savvy, their computing experience is Web / eMail / FaceBook, and an occasional letter so the platform itself is irrelevant. They aren't interested in the tech, so they don't fiddle, so it doesn't break _ever_. MS threw away their Office Suite with 2007 the UI is so different it was easier for my wife to move from Office 2003 to LibreOffice (Open Office) than to Office 2007 - so now she uses Open Office on Ubuntu.

My kids Computing Experience is through their Smart Phones - eMail / MSN Chat / FaceBook where they fall out with their friends and generally have a miserable time - they don't care about PCs / Mac / Ubuntu - if they could attach their phone to a big screen with keyboard & mouse, they'd be happy with that.

So the point is MS started out in a position of total market domination which is being whittled away by an explosion of alternatives - they can and will lose their position as #1, but they won't die - the future for MS will probably be as an application developer, which is probably good - MS made good : great apps and terrible : average Operating Systems...

naw wrote:Linux on the desktop currently only works for TechnoPhobes or Geeks

I've got a bootable USB pen drive with the LXDE version of PCLinuxOS on it, every time family, friends or colleagues have a problem with their Windows PC I lend it out for them to try. I have a fair number of Linux converts and not one geek amongst them.

I usually get the job of doing the install though.

the.weavster wrote:

naw wrote:Linux on the desktop currently only works for TechnoPhobes or Geeks

I've got a bootable USB pen drive with the LXDE version of PCLinuxOS on it, every time family, friends or colleagues have a problem with their Windows PC I lend it out for them to try. I have a fair number of Linux converts and not one geek amongst them.

I usually get the job of doing the install though.

Yep - once tried they realise Ubuntu on the desktop works - but you do have to be prepared to let go of all your old Windows SW - WINE works - mostly, but there's always a niggle. My wife (Debi Ann) particularly likes the Debian wallpaper I put on her laptop

naw wrote:Yep - once tried they realise Ubuntu on the desktop works - but you do have to be prepared to let go of all your old Windows SW

No problem for eMail writers, but for other users the missing software choices is the problem on Linux.
When it comes to Audio and 3D applications, you have many choices on Windows and MacOS, nothing similar is available for Linux.

3D Applications

• Blender
• Autodesk 3DS Max
• Autodesk Maya
• Autodesk Softimage (SoftImage XSI)
• Autodesk Mudbox
• Maxon Cinema4D
• NewTek Lightwave 3D
• Luxology Modo
• Pixologic ZBrush
• Smith Micro Poser
• Daz3D Hexagon
• Daz3D Bryce
• E-on Software Vue
• [...] much more

Audio Applications

• Ableton Live
• Propellerheads Reason
• Native Instruments Maschine
• Native Instruments Komplete
• Steinberg Cubase
• Steinberg Nuendo
• Cakewalk Sonar
• Avid Pro Tools
• Image-Line FL Studio (FruityLoops)
• [...] much more

On Windows and MacOS you have so much choices for professional software and
hundreds of million users bought such software. On Linux... well, just forget it.
Same for gamers, but you already know that.

Danilo wrote:No problem for eMail writers, but for other users the missing software choices is the problem on Linux.
When it comes to Audio and 3D applications, you have many choices on Windows and MacOS, nothing similar is available for Linux.

..//..

On Windows and MacOS you have so much choices for professional software and
hundreds of million users bought such software. On Linux... well, just forget it.

3D Applications
Blender

blender.org wrote: Is there any advantage of running Blender on Linux?

Yes, specially on the speed department. Many users (including myself) have reported that Blender loads and renders noticeable faster on Linux than in other operating systems. Please take note that no matter what operating system you are using, rendering from the command line is (on 99% of the cases) faster than rendering from the GUI.

Besides, considering consumed computer resources, Linux puts a lighter load on your CPU, thus leaving more free resources to be used for actual 3D work.

Ares Commander
Bricscad
FreeCAD
gCAD3D
Geomorph
Make Human
Medusa4
POV-Ray
Siemens NX
VariCAD
[...] much more

Audio Applications
Ardour
Audacity
Freewheeling
Hydrogen
Jackbeat
Jokosher
LMMS
Mixxx
RoseGarden
SpiralLoops
[...] much more

Danilo wrote:Same for gamers, but you already know that.

Games are not my thing but my kids seem to like playing Flash games online much more than they play with their consoles these days.

the.weavster, i was talking about professional software. Some of the software packages
I listed are known as the best in the world.
Of course it is not possible to know the difference if you don't know the software
i was talking about. It is logical that you get often better products if you pay $700
or $2000 for it. Those companies make very good products, they make
big money with it, so they are able to hire the best programmers in the world.
It is business. You get nearly perfect software at very high quality standards, with
latest technologies included. Those companies are managed with departments for
user interface design, software quality, support teams, professional documentation
writers, often video-tutorial makers and more. You know yourself, it is different from
the little local company with 2 software developers or hobby coders.

It is a different world and if you pay big money for such products you get something
for the money.

I know Linux and its software, I used it for some years. It is OK for free, but if you
like to use the best software available and you don't have a problem with paying for it,
you can only use MacOS and Windows. So I don't run Linux anymore and I go with Windows,
but most (at least 95%) of the software for 3D and Audio is available for MacOS too.
Nothing similar on Linux. It was the same situation 10 years ago, and it will be the same in 10 years,
so I'm quite sure Windows and MacOS will not disappear soon when it comes to big business
and professional commercial software.

Grandpa does not buy such software. He can use Linux for writing e-mails to his daughter
and for printing out some holiday pictures. A mobile phone or a tablet is enough for grandpa
to do everything he wants.
Power users and businesses need more. Especially where time is money, it is no problem to
license a professional product for some hundred dollars, if it helps you to get a job done
better and faster. In this case you can choose from a big list of available products and decide
yourself what is the best for you.
If the available free software on Linux is good enough for you, it is OK. No problem with that.
For me it is not, the software I like is available for Win and MacOS only. It is a good thing to
have a choice between different OS, software packages and licensing models.
Would be boring if 7 billion people all had to use the same, just because there are no alternatives
to choose from.

Danilo wrote:the.weavster, i was talking about professional software. Some of the software packages
I listed are known as the best in the world.
Of course it is not possible to know the difference if you don't know the software
i was talking about.

How do you know all the Linux packages are not 'professional software'? How many of them have you actually really tried?
Don't lie now (but I bet you will).

Let's take FreeCAD as one example, it may be a 'hobby' project but the main contributor is a computer scientist employed as a lead developer by DaimlerChrysler. One of the biggest third party contributors is a Brazilian architect that uses the software every day for his job. Are you suggesting he can't be a 'professional' because he chooses to use that software?

If you'd been more alert you'd have noticed some of the packages I listed were actually commercial software, like Siemens NX. I would imagine Siemens are just about big enough to be able to afford some decent developers wouldn't you?

Maybe still not good enough for your super-dooper-special ultra-professional needs though

Danilo wrote:Grandpa does not buy such software. He can use Linux for writing e-mails to his daughter
and for printing out some holiday pictures.

Grandpa uses Windows because that's what comes preinstalled and he doesn't know any different.
Happy scanning Grandpa, I hope you live long enough to see the end of that defrag

Danilo wrote:Actually half of the software you listed is what we had 20 years ago on DOS and it looks exactly the same.
Some DOS protected mode software, written by hobby coders. Maybe that is what Linux really is...
...a protected mode DOS replacement with a GUI if you want it. Written by some hobby communists.

OFFS, not the absurd communist allegation again - communists like Google, Intel, IBM, NOKIA, Samsung, Canonical, Red Hat, Novell, Texas Instruments, etc, etc... (that's right - SERIOUSLY BIG companies who can afford to 'hire the best programmers in the world').
cooperation + collaboration != communism

Danilo wrote:It is quite abusive if you answer to my list of the world best software products with this crap.

Whatever happened to the :roll-eyes: emoticon?

Danilo wrote:the software I like is available for Win and MacOS only

I had reason to install Ubuntu the other day to test something. While I was in there, I double-clicked an MP3 to listen to. What the? No codec for it? For an MP3? And people want Linux to be taken seriously as an alternative to Windows? People will say, "download the codec", but that's not the point. The basics need to be there in the first place, and I don't see how computer newbies will know how to download the codec anyway. Also, I had no internet access to download it (I'm using a USB modem that only runs on Windows, so Ubuntu didn't recognise it) so I was SOOL.

Danilo wrote:Would be boring if 7 billion people all had to use the same

Maybe not... millions of people loved the Commodore 64 (which had the same specs for everyone), and it was extremely successful. There's a lot to be said for everyone running the same OS with the same specs. Frankly, I can sort of see that happening with Windows 8 and Metro. Microsoft may be on to something after all.

the.weavster wrote:How do you know all the Linux packages are not 'professional software'? How many of them have you actually really tried?
Don't lie now (but I bet you will).

No need to lie, the.weavster.

I tried none of the CAD packages that you listed. I didn't speak about CAD
software and i didn't list one CAD software for MacOS or Windows.
I'm not going to make a list with hundreds of CAD softwares for Windows and MacOS,
simply because I spoke only about software that I actually know and I am not into CAD.

Of course I searched and found all the software you listed before answering.
I noticed that you listed mainly CAD software and I noticed that you listed
some commercial programs.

There were only 2 programs that were in the category i was speaking about:
Make Human and Blender.

If you speak with Linux fans all over the world about 3D software on Linux, everybody
will tell you to use Blender. None of the Linux guys know that Autodesk Maya has a version for Linux.
On Win/Mac you can also use Blender and Maya, but you have at least 10 times more choices.

I already said that I used Linux for some years. I tried many thousand free Linux programs
and I actually bought the SlickEdit Windows+Linux bundle. I used many different distros,
in the beginning (like 10 years ago or so) i also paid for some distros like Suse Linux.
I build my own Linux from scratch, I bought some books and many Linux magazines and special
editions of those magazines, for example 'Linux as a Audio workstation' etc.
Non-Freaks don't do that. Most of the Windows converts install their Ubuntu Desktop and
they just use it like Windows. If something does not work anymore, they don't have a clue
and need experts like you to fix it.
There are many many Windows converts, just users that don't have a clue. The real Linux
guys are different. They are hardcore freaks and experts like you and me. But this hardcore
Linux freaks don't accept any proprietary software. For them everything has to be free,
not only free as freedom, but also free in the sense of not paying something.
Speak with the real Linux freaks, you get flamed if you mention proprietary commercial software.
I did it quite a few times over the years, they don't accept it. Yes, they are communists
when it comes to that.

Just for your information: I grew up in the German Democratic Republic (GDR), a.k.a. East-Germany.
So when it comes to socialism and communism, i actually lived in such a system. I grew up
with Marx and Engels, I actually experienced different systems, 3 different currencies (up to now ), etc..

I have another understanding of the market and I accept proprietary commercial software.
I work myself in a company with more than 50,000 people. We make good products and sell
it world wide. The company makes some billions every year and I work very hard every day
to get very good money. Coming from a poor family (lower 10%), the statistics say I'm now
in the upper 10% when it comes to wages. I work hard and it enables me to do what I want.
That is how the system works for me and I accept it is the same everywhere in the world.
A company makes products, you pay for it. It is the same everywhere. You buy computers,
a house, cars, food, well... you pay for everything.
You can choose from many different companies for all products. Some make better products
that other companies, it is how the market works.

For me it is exactly the same when it comes to software. I can choose between
many different products and i buy what I choose for myself. If I buy Intel's C++ compiler,
Maxon Cinema4D, Ableton Live, Reason and products from Native Instruments, it is because
I evaluated many alternatives and came to the conclusion that this are the best products for me.
Many million people do exactly the same. You do the same when you are going to buy a new TV set.
So why should these products be free? Those companies are like any other company and
the developers in these companies work to get money. They make products you can buy
and the customers rate what is a good product. Customers pay for it.

So if you look at the whole software market for Linux, MacOS, and Windows, everybody
should clearly see that there are much more products available for Win and Mac.
You have much more choices on the 2 commercial platforms IMHO. Most of the best products
are Windows and MacOS only. That's how it is now and it was the same 10 years ago.
It is not my fault that it is like it is.
There is some commercial software available for Linux and there are a few good products for Linux,
but the main bulk can't be compared to the products available for Windows and MacOS in my opinion.
Just check the audio software and seriously compare it with something like Reason and Ableton Live.
It makes me laughing, but I am just a dumb-ass anyway.

I had some good years with Linux. At the end I was not satisfied with the available software.
So i bought some good software for Windows and everything is fine for me. Same for some of
my friends who use the same products on Windows and MacOS. That's it, I don't want to fight.

The market share will continue to show what the best products are. If a company who makes
3D or Audio software has 200,000 or 300,000 happy paying customers, it could mean the products are very good.

Peace, my friend! We just have different opinions, no problem at all.

The last post from Danilo sum it up the reason why I'm using Windows and not another OS.
I don't particularly care about the OS itself, I choose to use Windows for the software I can run on it.
When I find a tiny, obscure particular software, very often is written for Windows of there is a port for it.
When I find a big commercial complex package, sometimes is only for Windows.

And the Windows OS today is a lot better than when it's started, as a nice bonus.

I used slackware many years ago, when X11 was a luxury. It was fun and instructive but then other considerations took priority.

@danilo
About native instruments, I love their software, especially Guitar Rig

luis wrote:I don't particularly care about the OS itself, I choose to use Windows for the software I can run on it.

I have a question on my mind for a while now:
Why do so many companies make very good products for Windows and MacOS and ignore Linux?
I mean the same product for Windows and MacOS, not for Linux.

Is it because Linux guys hate commercial, closed source software?
So not enough potential customers, maybe some Windows converts who are willing to pay?

Is it because Linux does not have a big maintainer/company behind, except the kernel
it is a bunch of thousands of libraries written by different guys and support for that
many libs is not always sure? If a maintainer gives up it is not sure it will be continued.

Is it because there is no big stable core API (like WinAPI)? You have so many different
choices for API's for GUI programming, sound API, etc..
You never know what is the best thing to use. Some customers would prefer QT, others
want the application for GTK, others for plain X or FOX Toolkit, others for... whatever.

There must be a reason why many companies write great software for Windows and MacOS but simply ignore Linux.
Maybe it is a mix of the points above? Or other reasons?

Danilo wrote:There must be a reason why many companies write great software for Windows and MacOS but simply ignore Linux.

I reckon it's because of what I posted above. It's not an OS for everyday people. It's written by geeks, for geeks. I can't even play an MP3 without downloading additional codecs? Sorry, I don't have the time nor the motivation to learn that sort of rubbish.

And just look at all the support in these forums for getting PureBasic to run on Linux. Things like http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtop ... 15&t=49018 and http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtop ... 15&t=47545 scare me off even trying to use PureBasic under Linux! And look at "help" like this:

Shardik wrote:Solution:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install libxxf86vm-dev

What the? Means nothing to me. With Windows, I just run Setup.exe for PureBasic and it works. Too easy.

MachineCode wrote:With Windows, I just run Setup.exe for PureBasic and it works. Too easy.

Good point, thanks. Didn't use Linux for a while, but i remember now about all the package
management stuff and console work instead of just doing the real work.
You are right, not everybody is a Linux geek and artists (graphics, sound, code) just want to do their things
without being disturbed by this OS management things.

Danilo wrote: Is it because Linux guys hate commercial, closed source software?
So not enough potential customers, maybe some Windows converts who are willing to pay?

Probably this is not the main reason.

Danilo wrote: Is it because there is no big stable core API (like WinAPI)? You have so many different
choices for API's for GUI programming, sound API, etc..
You never know what is the best thing to use. Some customers would prefer QT, others
want the application for GTK, others for plain X or FOX Toolkit, others for... whatever.

Probably this. The fact the OS itself it's so heavily fragmented and with so many possible different layers one on top of the other.
You can count on a relatively stable kernel, all the rest is a moving target of pieces trying to connect to each other.
Hundreds of distributions doesn't help either.
The cost and difficulties to properly support a customer in time are probably another reason.

In reality Linux is like a OS in kit. You can assemble it the way you like and trim it to the bone if you want.

That's a strength (for the hackish individual) and a weakness (two different linux installations can look as two different planets).

MachineCode wrote:What the? Means nothing to me. With Windows, I just run Setup.exe for PureBasic and it works. Too easy.

If Fantaisie offered a setup.deb you'd be able to do the same with Ubuntu.

If I want to install 5 applications on Windows I'd probably have to go to 5 different websites, download 5 different installers and then run them one after the other.

With Ubuntu I'd open Synaptic, tick 5 check boxes and click 'Apply' (this is also all you need to do to install codecs).
Any missing dependencies, including GUI libraries, are installed for me.

How is Windows easier?

The Linux repositories are effectively the model all the app stores have followed; just select what you want, OK it and it gets installed.

Danilo wrote:Just check the audio software and seriously compare it with something like Reason and Ableton Live.
It makes me laughing, but I am just a dumb-ass anyway.

Maybe it's been a while since you looked, I think both Rosegarden and Qtractor are excellent and LMMS also gets better with every iteration.

I used to use Orion by Synapse Audio when I had a Windows PC, I tried a demo of Reason but I found it overly complicated so maybe I'm the dumb-ass

Danilo wrote:artists (graphics, sound, code) just want to do their things without being disturbed by this OS management things.

Then they'd probably appreciate the ArtistX distro.