Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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rrpl
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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skywalk wrote: The test of the free market is the truest.
Now, go back and create more ideas and products and let all the world decide its value. :idea:
This idea works well in Large countries, however in smaller countries with room for only a few major players. The companies get together and collude the prices well beyond a reasonable market price, and even well beyond a government business price. And the services often degrade rather than improve.

For instance what we saw in Australia when the telephone system was privatised, was most people thought the cost of calls would come down, instead because its a small market the costs went up dramatically. The power companies are also being progressily privatised and the cost of power in Australia where this is happening is rising dramatically. The government bank was privatised and although there were already private enterprise banks in the system, without a government bank to keep them honest, the cost of banking fees skyrocketed. Interestingly in all of these utilities the government operations were profitable, now of course they are astronomically profitable.

So what suit one country won't necessarily suit another. I think the main thing about any government system is that it is democratic. There has never been a problem with having a socialist or a capitalist government if the people can vote them out of office. As long as the process is democratic the people can vote in the government they want.This usually comes down to the constitution of the country involved - or at least some equivalent.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

Post by skywalk »

rrpl wrote:So what suit one country won't necessarily suit another.
I read a recent quote of Jackie Chan's, that "the Chinese people are not ready for freedom. They would not be able to handle it."

Is that what you mean, rrpl?
rrpl wrote:This idea works well in Large countries, however in smaller countries with room for only a few major players...
As Yoda said, "Size matters not."
Markets are markets. If they are free and open, then price gouging or collusion leads to lower consumer demand and increased competition from producers seeking these profits. All this is known by the monopoly or duopoly involved, so they must be quite desperate or ignorant or both. This is true in teeny weeny markets and great gobbin huge ones.
Do you think OPEC has control over the price of a barrel of oil?
Or your neighbor's kid can set the price of lemonade?
The smart company charges just enough to guarantee modest profits and happy customers, thereby creating a barrier of entry to potential competitors.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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skywalk wrote:
rrpl wrote:So what suit one country won't necessarily suit another.
I read a recent quote of Jackie Chan's, that "the Chinese people are not ready for freedom. They would not be able to handle it."

Is that what you mean, rrpl?
Err Last time I checked China was not a democracy! - unless you know something I don't. And I said "I think the main thing about any government system is that it is democratic." Of course democracy also won't work properly if you don't have free and fair elections either - this means no interference from businesses as well as government.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

Post by JackWebb »

I wasn't going to chime in here but I couldn't resist. But first i'd like to dispell this myth about "Democracy". I wouldn't want to live in a Democracy, neither would you. A true Democracy goes something like this.. Two wolves and one sheep all get one vote each. Today they vote on what to eat for dinner... In the USA we have (supposed to have) a Representative Republic. A Republic is slightly different from a Democracy in that it prevents a large group from having too much power over a smaller one.

About free markets, they work, period! Doesn't matter the size. I can't say what the deal is in Autralia, but I'd be willing to bet money that you don't have real free markets. My guess is that your government's "regulations" or taxes and fees are barriers to entry. In the USA we used to have free markets, but now if you're "too big to fail" the government will steal poor and middle class peoples retirement money and give it to you in the form of a "bailout".. And if that's not enough (of course it never is because how can corporate execs turn down free money) they put it on the backs of your kids. In a free market system you can enter any business without restrictions. You are also allowed to prosper or fail without goverment intervention. Competition is a good thing for consumers.

And for those who think we don't already have socialised medicine in the USA, we do. We have had it for years. It's called Medicare and Medicaid. It's what has driven the price of healthcare in this country to unaffordable levels. The demand for health services are high because of them, therefore so is the price. Obamacare will just make it even more expensive. It's simple supply and demand economics. Without those socialist programs, a doctors visit would cost about 30 US Dollars. Obamacare is near death, in 2012 it will be completely dead thank god!

Jack
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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JackWebb wrote:I wouldn't want to live in a Democracy, neither would you. A true Democracy goes something like this.. Two wolves and one sheep all get one vote each. Today they vote on what to eat for dinner...
I think a better solution would be for me to be in complete control - when it comes to dinner time it's still not good news for the sheep though.
JackWebb wrote:About free markets, they work, period! Doesn't matter the size. I can't say what the deal is in Autralia, but I'd be willing to bet money that you don't have real free markets. My guess is that your government's "regulations" or taxes and fees are barriers to entry. In the USA we used to have free markets, but now if you're "too big to fail" the government will steal poor and middle class peoples retirement and give it to you in the form of a "bailout"..
I completely agree with you here. That's what the last UK government did with the banks when I believe they should have just underwritten depositors and left the banks to sink or swim.

Plus of course running up a huge national debt is defrauding your children, but we don't have the flexibility to get out of the mess because we have monolithic state funded 'services' that continue consuming vast amounts of money irrespective of the state of the productive economy. We are so top heavy now, for example the ministry of defence alone now employs more people than we used to have to administer an entire Empire.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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JackWebb wrote:And for those who think we don't already have socialised medicine in the USA, we do. We have had it for years. It's called Medicare and Medicaid. It's what has driven the price of healthcare in this country to unaffordable levels. ...
Jack is correct here. I used to know a guy who turned down his health insurance from his work (which was supplied by the company at no cost to the employee) because he could get "Free" healthcare at the county hospital. He was too stupid to realize the two-hour drive (round trip) and super-long line in the waiting room cost him more (in lost wages) than his $25 co-pay from the insurance. He was too stupid to see the real cost of this free healthcare because he was from Canada, and expected all healthcare to be free. At least he was smart enough to realize that nobody drives North to Canada to get better healthcare...the Canadians drive South if they want better care. He knew their system failed, but because of his entitlement attitude, couldn't grasp why.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

Post by Demivec »

djes wrote:Interesting to read. The misc points of view depends on priorities upon such values like liberty, property, well being, equity... What is the most important for you?
As you may have already guessed, I think liberty is the most important. The reason I think this is because without liberty the other things do not matter.

For instance, without liberty what good would it be to have property but not be able to use it? To have well being but not be able to choose what you do? To have equity of health care but not be able to choose when you obtain in or from whom you obtain it? To have equity of employment but not be able to choose where you work or when?

Once there is a foundation of liberty other worthwhile things can be added and can likewise be taken advantage of.


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

Post by skywalk »

Well said JackWebb & the.weavster.

Sadly, there are too many that mistake idealities for realities.

The realities are we do not have free markets even in the USA.

The realities are we do not have a representative republic either.
Until lobbying is banned, we will continue to have a corporately representative government.
And that is fascism.

As systems grow ever larger, there is a resistance or hesitance to apply the predictive tool of response to extremes.
In electrical systems, you short circuit or open circuit entire areas to determine their properties and devise a predictable model.
With a disobedient child, you "ground" them(briefly), and limit their stimulii so they can reflect.

In social systems, short circuits happen often, and it is only then their machinations are revealed.
The fantastical bailouts of AIG, JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs(the list goes on...) were truly revealing.
What is disturbing to me, raised a capitalist, is the lack of outrage at statement's such as "Too big to fail".
But, then I did say this is fascism. :wink:
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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Demivec wrote:Once there is a foundation of liberty other worthwhile things can be added and can likewise be taken advantage of.
Isn't that, kind of, where you (we) started from?

There was (some) liberty, and therefore prosperity... could develop,
making a lot of excess fuel for a more centralized power available,
that was instituted to implement other worthwhile things...

This excess fuel from the liberty-prosperity made it possible
for that central power to grow to astronomical proportions...

The very thing created to serve you, finally became your master...

To keep any kind of decent liberty, it is important,
that the idea of liberty itself always keeps the most power!

The combined power of the people is a dangerously powerful thing!

The focus should not be on what regulation and restriction
should be implemented next,
but on how we can have even less regulations and restrictions!

Basically, you should be able to decide for yourself,
but noone should decide for another!
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
- George Orwell
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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the.weavster wrote:
Blood wrote:Here in the UK where healthcare is FREE to everybody, everybody supports, trusts and absolutely agrees that it is essential for a free united and functional society that everyone regardless of means has access to free healthcare.
You should never assume you speak for everybody: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI6uyhRc ... re=related
Dan Hannan is very well known is this country now because of these appearances on (wait for it...) Fox News! Before these appearances he was relatively unknown. Our government since then has distanced itself from him and rebukes his arguments. Fox must of looked very hard for this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Han ... _criticism

I'm not saying our system is the greatest but it sure as hell beats the USA's healthcare system. In the latest World Health Organisation's rankings the USA is ranked 37th, guess where the UK is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO's_rank ... re_systems

The problem is with the USA is not that you can't do the same or even better than others it's that you are continually lied to by organisations such as Fox News. You need to understand these are NOT news corporations. They serve their own agenda and tend to the rich. We are again lucky that we have the BBC who are 100% unbiased so the facts are never far behind.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

Post by Blood »

In fact just watch this to get a handle on fox news:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3434902428#
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

Post by skywalk »

Hey Blood,
What in tarnation is your fascination with Fox News?
Absolutely ALL news has bias, if it is written and produced by humans. ...sigh

FYI, this is where I get all my news. :lol:
...wait for it...
http://www.theonion.com/video/incompreh ... gua,19417/
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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Marlin wrote:
Demivec wrote:Once there is a foundation of liberty other worthwhile things can be added and can likewise be taken advantage of.
Isn't that, kind of, where you (we) started from?

There was (some) liberty, and therefore prosperity... could develop,
making a lot of excess fuel for a more centralized power available,
that was instituted to implement other worthwhile things...

This excess fuel from the liberty-prosperity made it possible
for that central power to grow to astronomical proportions...

The very thing created to serve you, finally became your master...

To keep any kind of decent liberty, it is important,
that the idea of liberty itself always keeps the most power!

The combined power of the people is a dangerously powerful thing!

The focus should not be on what regulation and restriction
should be implemented next,
but on how we can have even less regulations and restrictions!

Basically, you should be able to decide for yourself,
but noone should decide for another!
Speaking from the point of view of the experiment called the United States of America, the freedoms, rights and liberties of individuals were enumerated in it's Bill of Rights. The central liberties were recognized as coming from God, and not government; government was recognized as receiving its power from those who were governed. There were limitations placed on the 'centralized power' known as the Federal Government. The government was given certain authorities and those not expressly given to it (in the constitution) were reserved for the states. There were put in place restrictions on the exercise and the domain of power and authority in the government (checks and balances). As stated the government was organized as a constitutional republic to also ensure balances against mob rule by majority.

So much for the history lesson, because liberty is so important it also must be protected and used to good effect. A system of liberty will not perpetuate itself without continual involvement. Over time judges and laws can become corrupt, citizenry can give up liberty in exchange for promises of safety or security and elected officials can act against the rule of law. The end result of such is bondage and servitude.

I agree that liberty must be maintained. I also agree that liberty is not merely the act of doing what one wants but that it is the act of doing what one thinks is right. If you think it but don't do it then you have already given up liberty. It must be realized that liberty is also held hostage when there is only one choice possible. I think of an example from a fictional ruler in a movie that decreed "Be happy or else suffer death!". :mrgreen:
Last edited by Demivec on Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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Blood wrote:
the.weavster wrote:
Blood wrote:Here in the UK where healthcare is FREE to everybody, everybody supports, trusts and absolutely agrees that it is essential for a free united and functional society that everyone regardless of means has access to free healthcare.
You should never assume you speak for everybody: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI6uyhRc ... re=related
Dan Hannan is very well known is this country now because of these appearances on (wait for it...) Fox News! Before these appearances he was relatively unknown. Our government since then has distanced itself from him and rebukes his arguments. Fox must of looked very hard for this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Han ... _criticism
The fact the government has distanced itself from Hannan doesn't make him wrong, this government doesn't have the insight or the balls to do what needs doing to fix the mess we're in. The cuts they're making are piffling and they will make stuff all difference, we've got far too many public sector hangers-on and far too high taxes.

I don't get the problem with Hannan appearing on Fox news either, surely he should use such vehicles to get his views across. He's not going to get very far in his career if he just stays at home and keeps his thoughts to himself.
Blood wrote:I'm not saying our system is the greatest but it sure as hell beats the USA's healthcare system. In the latest World Health Organisation's rankings the USA is ranked 37th, guess where the UK is?
The millions of Americans who don't buy healthcare would agree with you, the ones who do would be outraged if they were paying their premiums and getting the pitiful level of service we do. You pay your money you takes your choice. Oh no that's wrong... our government takes our money and we get no f**king choice.
Blood wrote:The problem is with the USA is not that you can't do the same or even better than others it's that you are continually lied to by organisations such as Fox News. You need to understand these are NOT news corporations. They serve their own agenda and tend to the rich. We are again lucky that we have the BBC who are 100% unbiased so the facts are never far behind.
Traditionally the BBC has always advertised their situations vacant in the Guardian so they are recruiting from a pool of lefties.

They are also another hugely expensive state funded organisation whose employees earn enormous salaries for contributing f**k all and it doesn't matter whether they're doing a good job or not, the money from the license fee just keeps rolling in.

Of course those nasty Conservatives have contemplated doing away with the license fee but the dear cuddly BBC doesn't hold it against them.
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Re: Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

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"Useless laws weaken necessary laws" - Charles de Montesquieu

Yes, Marlin and Demivec. We have waaay too many.

Several Libertarian Party candidates have proposed that if elected, to only eliminate existing laws.
Never create a one.
And we would be far safer.
It is already illegal to kill or injure someone or steal someone's property.
The rest is poppycock and pandering!

-Rant Off
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