Pure "Basic" holding back potential customers?
-
utopiomania
- Addict
- Posts: 1655
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: Norway
Well, if you are trying to use PB as part of your resume wouldn't it be very simple to write a little demo app to include with this resume??
With a bit of thought, you could make a nice little app which could easily stump the best "C" derivative coder if they were challenged to just match the performance, speed, exe footprint, etc of your demo.
That way, when the so called "interviewer" looks funny at you because you dare mention a BASIC dialect language, you just challenge them. I think you would find the reactions very interesting. ( even better if they do bother to try, there would be some pretty major backpedallling going on with these "experts" as they start to realise their own "C" coding skills are having trouble matching a so called "lowly" BASIC!!)
And once you have managed to get their attention like that, the chances are very good that they will remember who you are & quite simply, you won't be on the "job search" market very long.
( To put it another way, when they look funny at you, you just simply come right back at em with a " put ur money where ur mouth is" type reaction & get them backpedalling. )
With a bit of thought, you could make a nice little app which could easily stump the best "C" derivative coder if they were challenged to just match the performance, speed, exe footprint, etc of your demo.
That way, when the so called "interviewer" looks funny at you because you dare mention a BASIC dialect language, you just challenge them. I think you would find the reactions very interesting. ( even better if they do bother to try, there would be some pretty major backpedallling going on with these "experts" as they start to realise their own "C" coding skills are having trouble matching a so called "lowly" BASIC!!)
And once you have managed to get their attention like that, the chances are very good that they will remember who you are & quite simply, you won't be on the "job search" market very long.
( To put it another way, when they look funny at you, you just simply come right back at em with a " put ur money where ur mouth is" type reaction & get them backpedalling. )
I wonder though if you are seeing an effect and not a cause.Kale wrote:I wouldn't say it's impossible to teach programming languages to people who have been infected by BASIC but i would say it's very hard teaching programming concepts to people who have been infected with basic. Even VB.NET seems to infect people with this strange malady.It's impossible to teach programming languages to students that have been infected with BASIC before
UsedBasic: Therefor can't be taught programming
could be
Can't be taught programming: therefor uses basic, scripting, excel macros etc
Also, remember what basic was back then when that statement was written.
I've known quite a few ASM programmers with this problem too! Different <> DefectiveKale wrote:I have known very many basic users that cannot grasp OOP no matter how hard they try, so something like design patterns are a complete no go.
Paul Dwyer
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
-
Kaeru Gaman
- Addict
- Posts: 4826
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:57 pm
- Location: Germany
agree.
I've seen a lot of chinese taxi drivers unable to cope with the traffic in New York...
that does not mean, that chinese can't drive in New York...
that does just mean that the traffic in New York is that terrible,
a large percentage of ALL mankind is unable to cope with it.
... really abstract matematical / semantic / programming problems are really difficult to understand for the average human.
even if this human can use a programming language,
that does not mean he is able to understand what OOP is and means.
and I suspect, a lot of C++ programmers do not really understand the underlying semantics,
they just learned by heart how to code the solution for those problems.
I've seen a lot of chinese taxi drivers unable to cope with the traffic in New York...
that does not mean, that chinese can't drive in New York...
that does just mean that the traffic in New York is that terrible,
a large percentage of ALL mankind is unable to cope with it.
... really abstract matematical / semantic / programming problems are really difficult to understand for the average human.
even if this human can use a programming language,
that does not mean he is able to understand what OOP is and means.
and I suspect, a lot of C++ programmers do not really understand the underlying semantics,
they just learned by heart how to code the solution for those problems.
oh... and have a nice day.
Re: Pure "Basic" holding back potential customers?
Why concerned? Aren't you making enough sales? Oh, wait...Mistrel wrote:I'm concerned that the word "Basic" in the name of the product is holding back customers who may be put off from this derivative even before researching the language.
I compile using 5.31 (x86) on Win 7 Ultimate (64-bit).
"PureBasic won't be object oriented, period" - Fred.
"PureBasic won't be object oriented, period" - Fred.
There needs to be a culturatal revolution of sorts 
I've been coding for 20 years or so, when I first started out I thought you know basic maybe slow but over time it should become mainstream with faster machines and better designs for the basic compiler both today are realities, however what hasn't changed is the dominance of other languages which with ever iteration get more and more complex to understand and there is a reason for this.
The less programmers there are the more dependent you are on the software industry to supply software to suit your needs, so how do you insure that the pool of programmers is kept low, so that your profits are high make the dominant language overly complicated.
As soon as you get a grasp of the new language they bring out another one constantly moving the bar higher and higher not in simplicity but in complexity.
So when you use basic as your main language you should not be ashamed of it you are actually a revolutionary fighting for simplistic rules of language to program a computer, you are not bound by any limitations like the old days you can create anything you want any time you want quicker than anyone else using a more complicated language, and the software industry fears you because you are no longer dependent on them but free.
I've been coding for 20 years or so, when I first started out I thought you know basic maybe slow but over time it should become mainstream with faster machines and better designs for the basic compiler both today are realities, however what hasn't changed is the dominance of other languages which with ever iteration get more and more complex to understand and there is a reason for this.
The less programmers there are the more dependent you are on the software industry to supply software to suit your needs, so how do you insure that the pool of programmers is kept low, so that your profits are high make the dominant language overly complicated.
As soon as you get a grasp of the new language they bring out another one constantly moving the bar higher and higher not in simplicity but in complexity.
So when you use basic as your main language you should not be ashamed of it you are actually a revolutionary fighting for simplistic rules of language to program a computer, you are not bound by any limitations like the old days you can create anything you want any time you want quicker than anyone else using a more complicated language, and the software industry fears you because you are no longer dependent on them but free.
I came to PureBasic years ago because I was looking for BASIC. I tried out a bunch and then settled here because it gave the best mix of everything (features, usability, etc...).
It doesn't matter what the name is (Pure-language-X), a person isn't going to recognize it in an interview for a job. In that type of situation, they are looking for the buzz word - C, C++, Java, .NET, etc... what ever they currently code in. If you are looking for work as a coder, you'll have to pick up some of those languages regardless.
If its just a case of not getting the 'respect' that you think you deserve from other coders for programming in PureBasic... tough luck. Suck it up. Its been said above, but the ends justify the means with Purebasic. Let the apps speak for themselves.
It would be insane to change the name.
It doesn't matter what the name is (Pure-language-X), a person isn't going to recognize it in an interview for a job. In that type of situation, they are looking for the buzz word - C, C++, Java, .NET, etc... what ever they currently code in. If you are looking for work as a coder, you'll have to pick up some of those languages regardless.
If its just a case of not getting the 'respect' that you think you deserve from other coders for programming in PureBasic... tough luck. Suck it up. Its been said above, but the ends justify the means with Purebasic. Let the apps speak for themselves.
It would be insane to change the name.
Besides, if the interviewer has no respect for basic programmers, it's unlikely his got a job for a basic programmer to do (people interviewing for the postion "Senior VB Developer" aren't going to be laughing someone who uses basic
If he's looking for a C coder and the applicant has only basic then of course their not skilled for the job being offered.
(people interviewing for the postion "Senior VB Developer" aren't going to be laughing someone who uses basicIf he's looking for a C coder and the applicant has only basic then of course their not skilled for the job being offered.
Paul Dwyer
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
“In nature, it’s not the strongest nor the most intelligent who survives. It’s the most adaptable to change” - Charles Darwin
“If you can't explain it to a six-year old you really don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein
@aaron
a) there's nowhere to migrate to
b) they dont have the skills on those old systems
To go to a potential employer and offer to re-write their Payroll system in an obscure language isn't going to get you many job offers
Unfortunately / fortunately depending on your point of view, we work in an environment where C / C++ / Java / C# / VB have critical mass - theres no shortage of people who *can* code these languages to some degree of compentency.
Put it another way, say your bank doesnt let you access your account at the end of February one year because their system has some wierd Leap Year bug, then you discover that this bug cant be fixed because the SW is written in language ABC and nobody knows that language anymore...
You wouldnt be too happy.
PB has its place, a valuable niche, I'd love it to be mainstream, but that would involve Fred selling to Bill Gates or similar
aaron has hit the nail on the head - I work in Server Consolidation and MANY of my customers in Retail, Banking, Distribution, Engineering have legacy systems on legacy Ultrix, VAX, DG-UX, WNT. They want to get rid of these systems because they cost an arm and a leg for HW Maintenance and they know at sometime soon, boards and PSUs are going to start popping and they wont get replacements. They cant migrate because:It doesn't matter what the name is (Pure-language-X), a person isn't going to recognize it in an interview for a job. In that type of situation, they are looking for the buzz word - C, C++, Java, .NET, etc... what ever they currently code in. If you are looking for work as a coder, you'll have to pick up some of those languages regardless.
a) there's nowhere to migrate to
b) they dont have the skills on those old systems
To go to a potential employer and offer to re-write their Payroll system in an obscure language isn't going to get you many job offers
Unfortunately / fortunately depending on your point of view, we work in an environment where C / C++ / Java / C# / VB have critical mass - theres no shortage of people who *can* code these languages to some degree of compentency.
Put it another way, say your bank doesnt let you access your account at the end of February one year because their system has some wierd Leap Year bug, then you discover that this bug cant be fixed because the SW is written in language ABC and nobody knows that language anymore...
You wouldnt be too happy.
PB has its place, a valuable niche, I'd love it to be mainstream, but that would involve Fred selling to Bill Gates or similar
Ta - N
-
Psychophanta
- Always Here
- Posts: 5153
- Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:33 pm
- Location: Anare
- Contact:
thats for you. And for me, as long as i work alone.
But when, like we do at uni, you start to work in larger groups on the same project, you begin to see the power of a more structured language, classes, oop and so on.
We all started from just about scratch with C# and .net, and its so fundementally different (especially .net) that my "bad" habbits of many years of basic is not following me. Hence i can gladly sit at work doing pure and visual basic, and switch to a more modular way of thinking at the university.
And; if there had been no "basic" in "purebasic", i doubt i would have found it. And it is a basic language. Not as in "basic" in functionality, but in the way you use it.
But, as said, it has blown absolutely nothing for me to learn several languages of the basic dialect. Rather the opposite, i get a lot done in little time. And companies seem to like that. But then again, i don't develop shareware or anything, just specialized internal software, so they don't care what its made in as long as it works.
But when, like we do at uni, you start to work in larger groups on the same project, you begin to see the power of a more structured language, classes, oop and so on.
We all started from just about scratch with C# and .net, and its so fundementally different (especially .net) that my "bad" habbits of many years of basic is not following me. Hence i can gladly sit at work doing pure and visual basic, and switch to a more modular way of thinking at the university.
And; if there had been no "basic" in "purebasic", i doubt i would have found it. And it is a basic language. Not as in "basic" in functionality, but in the way you use it.
But, as said, it has blown absolutely nothing for me to learn several languages of the basic dialect. Rather the opposite, i get a lot done in little time. And companies seem to like that. But then again, i don't develop shareware or anything, just specialized internal software, so they don't care what its made in as long as it works.
I like the name Purebasic a lot although I see what you guys mean. Everytime I tell some workmates about Purebasic I have to explain its power or they'll think it's a Qbasic clone.
But I agree with Paul. It is what it is. Period. There are a lot of different languages out there, each with their purpose and syntax.
But it depends on the individual. As for myself, once someone tells me some software is written in Java I have a really bad impression about it because I really think Java sucks big time while others sing praises about it.
But I agree with Paul. It is what it is. Period. There are a lot of different languages out there, each with their purpose and syntax.
But it depends on the individual. As for myself, once someone tells me some software is written in Java I have a really bad impression about it because I really think Java sucks big time while others sing praises about it.
Proud registered Purebasic user.
Because programming should be fun.
Because programming should be fun.
Bah what's in a name?
I'd use a language called PureB*****ks if it was half as enjoyable to use as PB (Purebasic that is!)
@TheFool : yes I've been having a good look at .net (VB in my case) and, well, it's not half bad at all! So, it is as bloated as my old granny after 6 bottles of Guinness, but there are some tasks for which the whole .net thingy makes one hell of a lot of sense! I have one application in mind which is just calling out for .net - if only I could put PB aside for long enough for me to get started!
Those who continually say 'the right tool for the job' are of course absolutely right.
I'd use a language called PureB*****ks if it was half as enjoyable to use as PB (Purebasic that is!)
@TheFool : yes I've been having a good look at .net (VB in my case) and, well, it's not half bad at all! So, it is as bloated as my old granny after 6 bottles of Guinness, but there are some tasks for which the whole .net thingy makes one hell of a lot of sense! I have one application in mind which is just calling out for .net - if only I could put PB aside for long enough for me to get started!
Those who continually say 'the right tool for the job' are of course absolutely right.
I may look like a mule, but I'm not a complete ass.