PureBasic Forums - English

If DRM is so bad, and is malware and all that, why do I never have any problems with running my games and other software that use it?

Why do most of the people I know also not have any problems running their software that has it.

TBH, the only people I know that have problems with DRM are people try to the things it's designed to prevent, such as giving copies of the software to friends, or trying to run it on more PCs than the license allows.

Since you've admitted that you are using pirated copies of Windows, you are all prime examples of why DRM software will continue to be written, sold, and used.

I'm no fan of Windows activation system either, but at the same time I have no problems with it either. But I DO NOT and WILL NOT use a pirated copy of Windows just to avoid or get around it.

case wrote:so drm fail to stop piracy, so drm are useless in term of software piracy enforcement, so why using drm if this is not to harm the legit customers ?

Because non technical managers are making these decisions. Thats part of the reason why larger companies do this more than smaller ones, the managers are more removed and less in touch with the technical side of the issue. It's just about their fear of piracy driving them to do anything to protect their revenue streams. Same as the music industry.

Tipperton wrote:If DRM is so bad, and is malware and all that, why do I never have any problems with running my games and other software that use it?

Why do most of the people I know also not have any problems running their software that has it.

TBH, the only people I know that have problems with DRM are people try to the things it's designed to prevent, such as giving copies of the software to friends, or trying to run it on more PCs than the license allows.

Since you've admitted that you are using pirated copies of Windows, you are all prime examples of why DRM software will continue to be written, sold, and used.

I'm no fan of Windows activation system either, but at the same time I have no problems with it either. But I DO NOT and WILL NOT use a pirated copy of Windows just to avoid or get around it.

i'm not using a pirated version of window
but why are leggit customers have to use pirated versions ? that's not because you don't have any trouble with drm that they are good..


it's something like saying hey guys why using condoms ? i never had any trouble with aids ... nice analogy as drm are like viruses they're installed without any form of warning

Tipperton wrote:If DRM is so bad, and is malware and all that, why do I never have any problems with running my games and other software that use it?

Dunno, maybe you don't notice?

75% of customer service calls in a big online music store are about problems with DRM: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20 ... y-drm.html

Note this:

Musicload has also tried to differentiate itself by allowing independent music labels to sell their music on the service sans DRM, and the move has reportedly been a success. ... Musicload said that artists choosing to drop DRM saw a 40 percent increase in sales since December [3 months]

The argument that it's needed for companies to stay in business is stupid. Products without DRM sell more.

DRM isn't evil, it is a necessity if you want to sell software of any kind. Activation (IE, phoning home) isn't always the best idea as it definitely does generate more support but it has been my experience that some sort of licensing enforcement is required if you hope to sell anything.

I've done experiments with my products where I tell users the software is expired but not really disable it after the trial period. The result? Sales dropped dramatically. I turned the expiration back on and sales immediately went right back to where they were before. These weren't people that actively looked around for a crack or shared serial number - these were just people that clicked past the "you need to purchase this software to continue using it" nag screen. When I disabled the button to click past those very same people happily purchased the software.

The vast majority of people just won't buy software unless you make them.

Regardless of the copy protection you put in place (and nothing is foolproof!), you'll always have someone that will dedicate enough time to figure out how to use the software without paying for it. Don't concentrate on those people. Concentrate on improving and marketing your software, not fighting every pirate. Finding a licensing/protection solution that is "good enough" and easy to use is my suggestion. Oreans.com has some great protection and licensing software and Rafael (the author) is flexible on pricing if you email him.

If you really want to start a software business then you'll find invaluable information in the ASP (Association of Shareware Professionals). We have an entire newsgroup dedicated to gamers and game development. See my signature for the ASP's website.

Karbon wrote:DRM isn't evil, it is a necessity if you want to sell software of any kind. Activation (IE, phoning home) isn't always the best idea as it definitely does generate more support but it has been my experience that some sort of licensing enforcement is required if you hope to sell anything.

I've done experiments with my products where I tell users the software is expired but not really disable it after the trial period. The result? Sales dropped dramatically. I turned the expiration back on and sales immediately went right back to where they were before. These weren't people that actively looked around for a crack or shared serial number - these were just people that clicked past the "you need to purchase this software to continue using it" nag screen. When I disabled the button to click past those very same people happily purchased the software.

The vast majority of people just won't buy software unless you make them.

Normal copy protection <> DRM.

The game Spore installs a service into ring 0, which means it has absolute systemwide access (can access all hardware devices and all memory without asking Windows). This service can't be uninstalled, ever. Even if you uninstall Spore, the service will still be running on your computer, in kernel mode. That's not necessary.

I was going to dissagree with Trond but thought I'd look it up first

Wikipedia wrote:Digital rights management (DRM) is a generic term that refers to access control technologies used by hardware manufacturers, publishers and copyright holders to limit usage of digital media or devices. The term is used to describe any technology which makes the unauthorized use of media or devices technically formidable, and generally doesn't include other forms of copy protection which can be circumvented without modifying the media or device, such as serial numbers or keyfiles. It can also refer to restrictions associated with specific instances of digital works or devices.

pdwyer wrote:[..]

Wikipedia wrote:[..]The term is used to describe any technology which makes the unauthorized use of media or devices technically formidable, and generally doesn't include other forms of copy protection which can be circumvented without modifying the media or device, such as serial numbers or keyfiles[..]

Anyone mind translating that into English?

EDIT: I'm glad there is Simple English Wikipedia:

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRM wrote:Digital Rights Management is a way to stop people from making copies. It works by using different computer technologies to make it hard for people to make copies. It is often used for music and movies. [..] If someone makes something, he or she usually has a copyright on the invention. This means the authors of the work can say how their work should be copied. People usually buy copies from the author or publisher. DRM helps stop people from making copies without buying them.

pdwyer wrote:I was going to dissagree with Trond but thought I'd look it up first

Wikipedia wrote:Digital rights management (DRM) is a generic term that refers to access control technologies used by hardware manufacturers, publishers and copyright holders to limit usage of digital media or devices. The term is used to describe any technology which makes the unauthorized use of media or devices technically formidable, and generally doesn't include other forms of copy protection which can be circumvented without modifying the media or device, such as serial numbers or keyfiles. It can also refer to restrictions associated with specific instances of digital works or devices.

Normal serial number systems are not DRM systems. I am totally for software protection, but not at the expense of the paying user.

Generally, DRM systems does continous, intrusive checking, normal copy protection does not.

Example:
DRM: Every time I start a program protected by SoftWrap, I have to wait about twice as long as necessary, because the actual software is crippled by a lengthy check, even for legal users. The software also uses more memory.
DRM-less protection: When I start PureBasic I do not have to any wait extra time, because the software is "pure" and uncrippled. Still, PureBasic is protected: non-paying users can't get the full version without entering their password.

You may think that other forms of protection are "less effective". Maybe that's true, but the state-of-the-art DRM system in the game Spore didn't stop the availability of a cracked version without restrictions even before the official release.

Example:
DRM: As soon as an audio CD with this particular protection is inserted into a Windows computer, a rootkit is installed that prevents copying of the CD.
Non-drm: No protection on the CD.

You may think that no protection is worse than some protection. But all "protected" audio content can easily be copied with a line out / headphones / speakers jack on the playing device and a line in / microphone jack on the recording computer. All protection of uncompressed audio is totally worthless. Protection of compressed audio is mostly worthless for normal bitrates.

Trond wrote:The game Spore installs a service into ring 0, which means it has absolute systemwide access (can access all hardware devices and all memory without asking Windows). This service can't be uninstalled, ever. Even if you uninstall Spore, the service will still be running on your computer, in kernel mode. That's not necessary.

Prove it!

I have Spore installed and can find not a single shred of evidence that a rootkit was installed with it. Hell, even SecuROM User Access service that older versions of SecuROM used is notably absent.

Trond wrote:Normal serial number systems are not DRM systems.

Wrong! If it requires a valid serial number to install or run the program, then it IS a form of DRM. As noted here:

Wikipedia wrote:Digital rights management (DRM) is a generic term that refers to access control technologies ... to limit usage of digital media or devices.

Trond wrote:Example:
DRM: As soon as an audio CD with this particular protection is inserted into a Windows computer, a rootkit is installed that prevents copying of the CD.

Yeah, but even that's easy to get around, just turn off AutoRun completely (which you should anyway, it's a very dangerous feature).

I honestly don't think this is a threat anymore, Sony tried it a while back and got roasted for it. I seriously doubt anyone is going to try that again after the Sony fiasco.

@Trond, Yes, I was agreeing with you. I had thought that serial numbers etc were DRM so I thought I'd look it up. Wiki proved me wrong so I posted that quote for the benfit of others who were possibly making the same mistake

@Tipperton, read a little further down in that same parragraph and it says "doesn't include other forms of copy protection which can be circumvented without modifying the media or device, such as serial numbers or keyfiles"

I suspect that part of this dissagreement is because of different definitions of what DRM is and isn't.

If we take the wikipedia definition as correct (if only for the sake of agreeing on a single definition) and that DRM and serial number copy protection are not the same thing.... Do you still agree with DRM?

So we are talking about root kits, region coding, CD's with errors on them so as not to run on PCs etc etc, read the DRM article for lots more.

OK

My definition of DRM is anything that gives a vendor or publisher the ability to control who has access to the program or media.

Digital Rights Management is just that, the Management of the Right to use or access Digital content be it music, video, a program, whatever.

To me that includes serial numbers since without a valid serial number issued by the vendor or publisher you don't have the right to access the digital content.

we're gonna have a problem debating a point when we don't agree on the language

Tipperton wrote:

Trond wrote:The game Spore installs a service into ring 0, which means it has absolute systemwide access (can access all hardware devices and all memory without asking Windows). This service can't be uninstalled, ever. Even if you uninstall Spore, the service will still be running on your computer, in kernel mode. That's not necessary.

Prove it!

I have Spore installed and can find not a single shred of evidence that a rootkit was installed with it.

Things running in ring 0 are not visible to you. Also, parts of SecuROM is cleverly hidden as CmdLineExt.dll or CmdLineExt_x64.dll.

SecuROM detects the use of Daemon Tools. Daemon Tools runs in ring 0, and it's impossible to distinguish between Daemon Tools and a real driver unless you're in ring 0 yourself. From ring 3 Daemon Tools looks just like any ordinary CD/DVD driver.