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Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:35 pm
by Little John
Rinzwind wrote:The point being that dumping all protected variables at the top splits the code in two and looks messy.
No, it looks tidied up and the code is not "split" at all.
Rinzwind wrote:Sometimes a var is needed at two separate spots, so mentioning it twice would be handy syntactically
Sometimes a variable is needed even at say 10 spots. You can "mention" it as often as you like. But declaration is only needed once for each variable.
Rinzwind wrote:Side note: Other languages allow you to declare vars scoped to a while-loop or if-branch.
So what? This is a different situation. Just declaring a variable over and over again by repeatedly using
Protected does nothing have to do with the scope of the variable.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:34 pm
by Josh
My opinion is divided on this issue:
- Personally, I declare all variables at the beginning of a procedure. If not necessary something else, I use only integers and strings for simple variables, whereas I always use the $ sign for strings. This results in a clean readable code, where the lines are not inflated by unnecessary information, making the code more difficult to read.
If somehow possible, the name should already say enough about the usage, so that a further explanation by a repeated declaration is not necessary. The name of Array, Lists and Maps is always the plural (simplified by an appended 's') of the individual elements, so that it is already clear here what is meant approximately.
- On the other hand, it should be up to everyone to write their code the way they want. Additionally, Macros or IncludeFiles could cause situations where a variable is declared repeatedly.
For these arguments and that there is definitely no reason why a repetition of Protected should not be allowed, I give a +1 for this request.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:23 pm
by Little John
Josh wrote:On the other hand, it should be up to everyone to write their code the way they want.
The world is not that simple. A programming language is not just for people to communicate with a computer, but it's also for people to communicate with each other. That's why e.g. we are sharing code here on the forum. An effect of that proposed strange programming style is confusing less experienced users, as we've seen here already.
Josh wrote:Additionally, Macros or IncludeFiles could cause situations where a variable is declared repeatedly.
Perhaps with
Define or
Global. But with
Protected 
I can't recall ever having read that someone had a problem with this during 12+ years here on the forum.
Josh wrote:there is definitely no reason why a repetition of Protected should not be allowed
A programming language shouldn't encourage people to use poor programming style.
The main problem with spreading variable declarations all over a procedure probably is, that
this defeats the purpose of EnableExplicit!
EnableExplicit is very useful for detecting typos.
So if e.g at the beginning of a procedure it reads
and later in the procedure it reads
then
the compiler will complain about this typo.
But if we write
somewhere in the middle of a procedure, then
this typo will not be detected even if
EnableExplicit is used!
In contrast, declaring all protected variables in one place dramatically reduces that risk. When it reads
at the beginning of a procedure, we will immediately see that this looks suspicious, and we will check whether or not this is actually intended.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:01 am
by Rinzwind
In a complex procedure it IS messy if all vars are dumped at top at only used way down. Same thing with globals btw. But there it is possible.
Just give people a choice MAN
Anyway, the behavior now is not consistent between global, define (which should be get rid off) and protected (which should be called local but called protected because define exists...).
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:40 am
by #NULL
Rinzwind wrote:define (which should be get rid off)
Only in Procedures, where it is used rarely anyway. But it's still used normally for main-local variables with EnableExplicit. But there is nothing wrong with using Define for procedure-local variables. It behaves like protected but is more consistent then with the use of Define for main-locals (except for Dim etc.).
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:55 am
by #NULL
I would forbid ANY redeclaration, even with the same type. There is also the issue of wrongly assumed zero-initialization on redeclaration in some cases. Some people might want to allow at least Global redeclaration in Procedures (for clarity), but it's pointless and Shared should be used instead, because the point of Global is to not have to declare it in the procedure.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:25 am
by TI-994A
#NULL wrote:...there is nothing wrong with using Define for procedure-local variables. It behaves like protected...
Not exactly. It's not possible to re-declare global variables with
Define in any scope. That's where
Protected comes in.
Variables should usually be defined only once within each scope. However, since this varies from language to language, and best-practices opinions seem to be split as well, the least we should expect from a language is consistency among the various declarative functions.
So, either allow redundancy with
Protected, or limit definitions with
Global and
Define to only once, within any single scope.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:07 pm
by Demivec
I believe redundant declarations were allowed as a way to work around include files explicitly declaring variables they used, i.e. a required Global from the file they were included in as source in that they were going to depend on.
I agree with Rinzwind with respect to some incoherence with declaring variables at the top of a long stretch of code when they won't be first used until a much later point. Unfortunately putting declarations and redeclarations at each distinct point a variable is used is very messy. Imagine doing this for an all-purpose index variable 'i'. Since the scope of a variable can't really be restricted any finer than a procedure block it makes more sense to declare everything at the beginning of that block, or at least in a single group with all other variables in that scope so that only one location has to be checked to verify what has been declared and to make useful comparisons for unneeded or incorrectly declared variables such as in the manner that Little John mentioned.
Those choices are based on the choices we have in PureBasic to limit scope and not necessarily from anyone's personal preferences. Those preferences may be based on how things are done in other languages with their respective uses of scope. If a programmer wants to declare variable just before the code where it is used, where that code is part of a much larger body of code, the generally accepted practice would be to make a procedure out of that distinct smaller section of code and declare its own variables inside it. There are many tradeoffs in regard to that, many involving the speed of execution but it can add clarity.
I personally would be happy to see additional choices of scope as part of my wish list, though I don't realistically ever see that happening. I would love to see any block of code able to be designated as a restricted scope and for it to inherent from the scope that it resides in.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:15 pm
by Josh
TI-994A wrote:Not exactly. It's not possible to re-declare global variables with Define in any scope.
This is the reason why I use in procedures nearly exclusively Define. Identical variable names in the main program and in the procedure can easily lead to confusion.
Protected I actually only use in reusable procedures and in some development tools, whose code is so worn out that I am not interested in it anymore. These procedures I also put between DisableDebugger/EnableDebugger so that they don't show up during debugging.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:04 am
by Rinzwind
Best practices in all programming languages that support it:
declare variables at the place where they are first used. Some even support scoped to if statement or loop etc.
So it would be welcome if I can just mention the variable twice to make the code more clear. I can do so already with Global, Define, Shared and Constants! Protected (and Static) must join that list. It is only consistent that way.
For now, I go back to Define then...
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:57 am
by Demivec
Rinzwind wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:04 am
Best practices in all programming languages that support it:
declare variables at the place where they are first used. Some even support scoped to if statement or loop etc.
So it would be welcome if I can just mention the variable twice to make the code more clear. I can do so already with Global, Define, Shared and Constants! Protected (and Static) must join that list. It is only consistent that way.
In the meantime, if you are reusing a variable later in a complex procedure as if it were a newly declared variable why not just use an initializing statement and a comment in place of a new declaration to clarify things. This can be formalized with a macro for numeric and string types according to someone's programming style.
Code: Select all
Macro RedeclareStr(_var_, _value_ = "")
_var_ = _value_
EndMacro
Macro Redeclare(_var_, _value_ = 0)
_var_ = _value_
EndMacro
Procedure mystuff()
Protected test, love$
;<code using test and love$>
Redeclare(test, 12) ;reusing test var as a new var
;<code using test>
RedeclareStr(love$, "") ;reusing love$ var as a new var
;<code using love$>
EndProcedure
@Edit: Made a correction to the macro code. I also removed the reminder I previously posted to clarify this post didn't modify anything I had said previously. The reminder apparently seemed to be a bump to the topic for everyone to restate things already said. Don't need any infinite loops here.
Re: Protected 'already declared'
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:17 am
by Little John
Demivec wrote:Just a reminder that my viewpoint is that allowing redeclaration using protected is a positive thing.
This is just a reminder that my viewpoint is that allowing redeclaration using “protected” is a negative thing,
see
viewtopic.php?p=547898#p547898