PureBasic Forums - English

@xorc1zt:
There is a way to get all of this features and much more: learn and use another programming language.

Of course this is challenging, and it is by no means an easy decision. It can be very emotional
because you believe PureBasic has more potential.
"Just add this and that and all will be fine again." - it does not work this way! Really!

You have mastered PureBasic and now you need new features to grow even more. The missing features
limit your own potential, your own capability. That makes you angry.
On the other side, learning a new language may feel like starting at #Null again at first, but it isn't
because you already got programming experience when you mastered PureBasic. Nobody can take
this experience away from you and you can use much of it in other languages as well.

Seriously: You can spend the rest of your lifetime here, begging for the features you want
and force the PB developers to add what you want. It will not happen.
Look at your list above: If some feature requests are not implemented after 9 years and multiple requests
by many different people, the PB developers just may be not interested in this feature.
You don't need to understand their decision. Very often I also cannot understand their decisions,
especially if so many people agree that it is a very useful features and many advanced coders think
it shouldn't be a big problem to implement it (for example the Multi-lines statement '_' that so many BASICs have).

At the end Fred and Freak make the decisions for PureBasic, not the users. That's a fact.
You tried everything, it did not help. Now it is your turn! YOU have to make a decision
for yourself, for your personal future and for your health:
Wait another 10 years for the features you want. Just wait. It will not happen. For OOP they already
said it will not happen. The problem is, you don't want to hear that. You don't want to accept that,
but you have to.

The other alternative is: learn and use another programming language or programming system/environment.
Move on, grow, don't waste your life time anymore with begging for this features. Use your time for more
productive works.
What would be the problem? Most advanced developers mastered and use several programming languages.
There is no problem with that. Can PB do some magic that you can't do with C++, C# or Java? I don't think so.
Those languages have all you want, they are waiting for you. And there are 1000 more languages and systems
available to choose from.


And this is by no means a flame against PureBasic or its developers (some guys out there will for sure think so).
PureBasic is like it is. Try to accept it. At least try it. Take some free time for yourself, relax (a bit) and ask yourself:
"If PureBasic will definitely not change to what i want it to be, what is the only alternative?"


Sleep a night or two and think about it.

moogle wrote:Such low quality I didn't want to harm my eyes by watching it

Just listen to it then. You'll still get my point.

MachineCode wrote:

moogle wrote:Such low quality I didn't want to harm my eyes by watching it

Just listen to it then. You'll still get my point.

It's alright though, I remember that scene. I used to watch the simpsons a lot

my english grammar is bad but i gonna try to answer properly

danilo i am not hungry but quiet and open for discussion . for your information i studied and fluent with c, c++, java(i really hate this one), ada (my favorite language by far), haskell, ocamcl ,smalltalk, lisp and tried purebasic for my own personal projects. when i saw that a language which sold himself as a language for experts but doesn't have multi lines statement or anonymous structures i was horrified. Is Fred developing new features for himself or for the customers ? what are his priorities on a short, mid and long term ? we don't even know that.

freak, if i understood well. we ask a feature as we're talking to the wall then we must wait the next purebasic update which could come at the end of year and finally if the feature are not implemented (i don't and never said you must implement all the requested features) we can not even know if you considered it or not. are you really gonna tell me that the proper way to communicate with us ? i don't think so. that why i propose you to a better system like "Request Tracker" or the one on github and source forge.
in that way each users would open a ticket and everybody can talk about it then the devs will put a status (like accepted, considered or rejected) and a priority on the ticket . there are many other benefits like merging two tickets who talk about the same feature for example. i really hope you will considering this or at least telling me what is your opinion please.

xorc1zt wrote:[...] i propose you to a better system like "Request Tracker" or the one on github and source forge.
in that way each users would open a ticket and everybody can talk about it then the devs will put a status (like accepted, considered or rejected) and a priority on the ticket . there are many other benefits like merging two tickets [...]

Funny thing is that this has been requested numerous times as well! This is probably the main request thread: http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtop ... =3&t=32137

Let me sum up some of the PRO arguments:

• Bug and request tracker can be combined in one software
• No need for Fred&Freak to tell us not to repost, bump bug reports and feature requests
• Gain of usability (browsing the numerous reports is a pain): Easy searching and browsing of fixed/reported bugs
• Version management: In what version will it be / was it fixed?
• Clearness: Developers and we users have the complete overview
• Professionality: A beginner could even be confused of all the bugs being posted on here!

Your main CONTRA concern is that the feedback by us would be lower but I don't see a reason for this. Instead of posting a bug on here I would simply post it there. Where exactly is the problem?! We are programmers and know the need of a tracker and how to use it...
Also the argument of too much time for maintenance is not fair: You set it up and it's done. The advantages for you and us clearly outweighs it.
There probably even is some plugin for this forum software which could at least improve the current way of doing it...

Well if people don't use the tracker then perhaps they can make it so you can still post bugs here, and some appointed member or helper can then go post the bug on the tracker once it's confirmed by some users etc.

Danilo wrote:There is a way to get all of this features and much more: learn and use another programming language.

It's not quite as simple as that. We may not have the time to learn that new language, or port our current apps. When you've got paying customers, it can be business suicide to stop one development fork and start another. So, we're effectively locked into the language that we started with, and are comfortable with. (BTW, when I say "we" here, I don't actually mean myself personally, as I am 100% happy with PureBasic as it stands).

moogle wrote:Well if people don't use the tracker then perhaps they can make it so you can still post bugs here, and some appointed member or helper can then go post the bug on the tracker once it's confirmed by some users etc.

That's right; there's no reason why a bug tracker has to be "official" and can't exist on a third-party website. Good thinking!

MachineCode wrote:

moogle wrote:Well if people don't use the tracker then perhaps they can make it so you can still post bugs here, and some appointed member or helper can then go post the bug on the tracker once it's confirmed by some users etc.

That's right; there's no reason why a bug tracker has to be "official" and can't exist on a third-party website. Good thinking!

moogle, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that's what he was saying. I think he meant an official tracker where the tickets have been discussed in the forum before they were added. Then it would be possible to reference the tracker ticket to the discussion thread. By the way, it's kind of like this for PHPList...

xorc1zt wrote:Is Fred developing new features for himself or for the customers ?

I think it is a thing in between. If he likes an idea and it is not so hard
to implement (or 3rd party library available), he will add the request.

xorc1zt wrote:what are his priorities on a short, mid and long term ? we don't even know that.

The roadmap for PureBasic development as far as i know:
- 64 bit Cocoaified OS X version
- may be some big surprises


I was thinking the whole night about your posting and i am still not sure about it.
May i ask you for the reason you want to use PureBasic for more projects?

• You seem not to be very happy with PureBasic.
• You are missing many basic features of other languages
  (we don't talk about advanced stuff like templates or parallel programming here (ParallelFor etc.))
• No support for feature requests ("A request does not entitle you to anything. Not even an answer.")
• Bugs take some month to get fixed (next version)
• There are always many bugs, it feels like it didn't get any better after 10 years
  (i dont have any other product/development tool with so many bugs, but that's just me)
• You can choose between 8 languages (c,c++,ada,haskell,ocamcl,smalltalk,lisp,purebasic)
  (not counting Java if you hate it )

I understand MachineCode. He is happy with PureBasic and he has no choice anyway. It's OK.

I have a small choice (C,C++,C#,PB only for me) and the little list above is also my list.
I wouldn't even consider using PureBasic for my own projects, just for small tools
and fun (like helping users in the forums or write Include/Libs for them).

For serious work i choose something that works better for me. A more reliable product,
usually with 24h support (get answer within 24h) if there is a problem/bug/(feature request?).
Nobody wants "big surprises" like compiler and library bugs if you work on a serious project.
From my own experience i do not have such problems all time with the other products i use.

So from my point of view i cannot understand why you want to use PB so badly. You have choices.
Maybe you are too advanced for PureBasic? Do you think that's possible?
I mean, how often did you dance and have a big party lately, after reading about the new
features when a new version of PB came out?
PB users are often very excited about the new features, they dance and scream
and they are very happy. Is it the same for you?

For me it's more like "ok, now PB has that too." because it is nearly impossible PB gives me
something new that i don't already have in the other development systems.

In 10 years from now on, PureBasic will still not have the features we have in C++ or C# today.
But it is OK, isn't it? It is a small BASIC with its own goals, not a copy of another system.

About PureBasic's goals:
If i understood correctly from what i read here in the forums, Fred wants PureBasic to be
a platform independent system (Win,Linux,Mac for now) with a BASIC-like language
that is easy to learn and easy to use, especially for beginners. He wants it to stay clean,
so no "featuritis" (add as many features as you can just because you can).
Please correct me if i'm wrong here. It is how I understand PureBasic now.


So my simple conclusion is: PB does not and cannot satisfy all developers in the world.
This includes also the possibility to 'grow out of it', the possibility another system works
better for you after learning it. Or maybe your interests just changed over time.
Or a developer is too advanced, an expert, who can't live without the features that he
is used to and that he likes so much from other programming languages.

If PB works for you as it is and you are happy and satisfied with it, have more fun with it.
If PB makes you unhappy, angry, aggressive or just crazy, better look for something that fits better.


About your ideas, xorc1zt: I agree with you and i think all of your ideas are good.
I think i understand you. Unfortunately I can't change that situation (talking to the wall)
as I am just a little customer like you. Looks like the customer is not always right, as is the rule.

c4s wrote:

MachineCode wrote:

moogle wrote:Well if people don't use the tracker then perhaps they can make it so you can still post bugs here, and some appointed member or helper can then go post the bug on the tracker once it's confirmed by some users etc.

That's right; there's no reason why a bug tracker has to be "official" and can't exist on a third-party website. Good thinking!

moogle, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that's what he was saying. I think he meant an official tracker where the tickets have been discussed in the forum before they were added. Then it would be possible to reference the tracker ticket to the discussion thread. By the way, it's kind of like this for PHPList...

You are correct c4s, but if the devs did use an "unofficial" tracker that wouldn't be so bad either. But if it went unused then whoever was maintaining it or setting up would be wasting their time.
I do understand the PureBasic teams reason to keep it in forum though as it's one place for users to visit and less hassle but phpbb wasn't really designed for it. If an addon or extension could be added that supported such a feature it would be a very good middle ground solution.

You still think to much Danilo. You haven't changed, too.

Danilo wrote:If PB works for you as it is and you are happy and satisfied with it, have more fun with it.
If PB makes you unhappy, angry, aggressive or just crazy, better look for something that fits better.

In your long story you just have forgotten to tell, that the developers
are not able to service us more as they are just 2 ...

MFG PMV

PMV wrote:You still think to much Danilo. You haven't changed, too.

I am sorry, PMV. The doctor said it is ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder).
I can live with that, i don't have a choice anyway. My brain just can't stop thinking,
it is running at 137% all time. If i don't let this things out of my brain, it gets worse.

Believe me, I tried so many things, including relaxation techniques, taking psychotropic
and antidepressant drugs, nothing helped in the long run.

So what to do? For me it helped to believe that not all people are the same.
Some people are small-sized, some are big, some are quiet, some are hyperactive.
Some people never stop talking, some talk rarely.

It is just diversity, isn't it?

PMV wrote:In your long story you just have forgotten to tell, that the developers
are not able to service us more as they are just 2 ...

Everybody here knows that, no?

I know they can't do miracles. But i also think that some things might be sub-optimal
and it is worth it talking about such things.
What do you think?
Is it annoying? Talking to walls? You cannot change other people, just yourself? Just give up and forget about it?

We don't talk much about our plans anymore for one simple reason: plans change.

Some times we do announce even the hint of something that is to come and people hype it up to such ridiculous proportions that there is no way that the actual implementation will satisfy everything that people dreamed up in their head. Then if the release comes all we get is disappointment that what is actually a pretty cool feature did not live up to everyone's wild expectations. It is even worse if we decide to postpone or drop the announced feature.

So yes, this forum is not meant to be a "planned features tracker" at all. It is a suggestion box. If you have something you want added, feel free to post it. We read it, and if it is a good idea, is doable and fits with existing plans for PB we might do it. I say "might", because as I said: plans change.

If I were forced to answer every post in this section, the answer would be "maybe" for pretty much every post. The same goes for any kind of tracker solution. The status would simply be "open".

What we seem to forget sometimes is that Purebasic is largely a gift. I paid around $80 usd for my license nearly seven years ago, money I could have used to maybe take my wife to dinner once, and for that small sacrifice I received lifetime updates to the Purebasic language. Today the product is at least twice what it was when I purchased it. All those brilliant new libraries and improvements I got, and will continue to get, for nothing. Yes, I make the occasional feature request too. But when time goes by and my suggestions don't get implemented, I'm not going to complain. It just wouldn't seem fair.

netmaestro wrote:money I could have used to maybe take my wife to dinner once,

Gasp!! You didn't take your wife to dinner??? Ooeerr, ahh, mm, oh bugger, neither did I damnit.