PureBasic Forums - English

Marlin wrote:

Trond wrote:The EU is extremely pro-capitalistic. In fact it was started as a trade union, and the free flow of goods and services is still the main priority that takes precedence over basically anything.

But I heard rumors, that sound more like "free flow of regulations, restrictions, ...
created by commissions not subject to any kind of public elections ...".

Fortunately I don't feel any effects of such here yet.

I would not even know what "Socialist quagmire" would really mean.

Yes, there are regulations, but they are often concerned with overriding stricter regulations in the member countries. Some typical EU restriction groups:
1. Regulations to prevent member nations from passing their own regulations that would prevent free flow of goods and labour.
2. Regulations about surveillance of EU inhabitants.
3. Safety regulations (no dangerous chemicals in food, for instance). Though these regulations are often not particularly strict and prevent member nations from having their own (maybe stricter) regulations.

@Marlin,
You touch on several topics, and yes, the Medical profession IS a business.
It is not a philanthropy, and it strives greatly to secure its dominance in all decisions that would present the slightest competition.
"Healing" is in conflict with future income, much as "death" is, but "treatment" is continuous and on-going.

Yes, a history lesson of the USA would not be well served in this topic.
Suffice to say, "All politics are local".
Locals will always despise a remote leader and more so if despotic.
This is no different than any previous colonies of great empires. (India, America, etc.)

I have never heard the Presidential blood relations theory before today.
No matter, the President is not the most powerful entity in our country.
Look to those that are not elected and retain their power without public challenge.

Trond wrote:

the.weavster wrote:EU, a dreadful Socialist quagmire

The EU is extremely pro-capitalistic. In fact it was started as a trade union, and the free flow of goods and services is still the main priority that takes precedence over basically anything. Get your facts straight.

I think it is more correct to say, the EU is a collection of failed or nearly failing Socialist economies.

Trond, from an outsider perspective, think of the hypocrisy implied by the grand formation of a union of competing countries many of whom despise competition and create tariffs and barriers to competition?
What they could not achieve(fiscal prudence, consumer choice, unlimited pay or unlimited work week) in their own governments, they now suddenly defer to an outside collective interest?
Ahhh, collective is the keyword here.

Trond wrote:The EU is extremely pro-capitalistic. In fact it was started as a trade union, and the free flow of goods and services is still the main priority that takes precedence over basically anything.

Complete bollocks, it is harder to trade with the EU than with other parts of the world because I have Intrastat, ECSL and other such worthless statistical bulls**t to deal with. I don't have any of that when I trade with Taiwan, China, USA, Australia, etc... and don't even get me started on triangulation.

If it's just a trade agreement why does British tax payers money get used to subsidise other EU countries? The EU had a scheme where it subsidised companies that were situated in areas they perceived the local population faced economic difficulties. We had the ridiculous situation where the corporation tax we were paying to the British government was then being used by the EU to subsidise one of our competitors.

And what about the common agricultural policy? Farmers received huge subsidies from the EU for producing crops there was no market for and then they were just left to rot. Now of course we have 'set-aside' where farmers still receive huge subsidies only now it's for not producing crops.

Does a trade agreement have a parliament?
Does a trade agreement have a president?
Does a trade agreement have it's own court?
Does a trade agreement have the right to pass laws that over-ride the laws passed by a countries own sovereign parliament?

Before the Eurozone meltdown there were many MEPs in Brussels openly talking about political union, an undemocratic, bureaucratic, socialist super-state with subsidies flying here there and everywhere. Now though the Germans are rather less enthusiastic about having to prop up every failed economy in Europe so it's less likely to happen.

Trond wrote:Get your facts straight.

Open your eyes.

I think it is more correct to say, the EU is a collection of failed or nearly failing Socialist economies.

Whatever. The EU doesn't stink like the good old U.S.of.America does, though, so we're happy campers.

Look, in a few years, the Turks, Russia and Scandinavia is EU territory too, doing biznizz, and
saving the world at the same time. From the chinese.

utopiomania wrote:

I think it is more correct to say, the EU is a collection of failed or nearly failing Socialist economies.

Whatever. The EU doesn't stink like the good old U.S.of.America does, though, so we're happy campers.

Look, in a few years, the Turks, Russia and Scandinavia is EU territory too, doing biznizz, and
saving the world at the same time. From the chinese.

Utopiomania...can you at least wait until I have a beer in hand
Muslims in the EU? Turkey and Greece don't mix well.

You'll know when the USA really stinks. When more people are leaving than trying to get in.

Until then, stick to the protectionist driven EU and their 101 excuses for not letting Turkey in.
(EU pronounced in English is 'eeyouw', which is slang for something smelly.) Go figure?

Utopiomania...can you at least wait until I have a beer in hand

Of course I can wait, you member of the evil empire.

In the mean time, I enjoy my beer listening to Willy Nelson, Ain't it funny.

That's what i call true communist sound quality. Life is good. The last weeks
was awful at work. Perform, Perform, Perform.

But this is the weekend.

utopiomania wrote:But this is the weekend.

Another fine USA invention!
Work is good for you uptopiomania!

Willy sings well, but it is out of both sides of his mouth.
Caught for Tax evasion using illegal tax shelters.
Same as many of our most liberal politicians, who strain many legal firms trying to hide their money outside their home states.

Woops, no beer in my fridge...gotta go get some.

You know something is wrong with a society when people start moaning about free healthcare!

Here in the UK where healthcare is FREE to everybody, everybody supports, trusts and absolutely agrees that it is essential for a free united and functional society that everyone regardless of means has access to free healthcare. Anything else is unfair, cruel and a backwards step for humanity.

I really have no idea why anyone in the USA would object to the poorest having free healthcare. It is a basic human right for all free citizens.

Man, ...this makes me wonder sometimes about America and the people that inhabit that country that they could be so cold. The USA is seen to the world (especially here in the UK) as the last bastion of true freedom and democracy. Then they protest things like Obama's healthcare reforms, i mean come on! Stop watching fox news and grow some humanitarianism!!!

Blood wrote:You know something is wrong with a society when people start moaning about free healthcare!

Here in the UK where healthcare is FREE to everybody, everybody supports, trusts and absolutely agrees that it is essential for a free united and functional society that everyone regardless of means has access to free healthcare. Anything else is unfair, cruel and a backwards step for humanity.

I really have no idea why anyone in the USA would object to the poorest having free healthcare. It is a basic human right for all free citizens.

Man, ...this makes me wonder sometimes about America and the people that inhabit that country that they could be so cold. The USA is seen to the world (especially here in the UK) as the last bastion of true freedom and democracy. Then they protest things like Obama's healthcare reforms, i mean come on! Stop watching fox news and grow some humanitarianism!!!

If it were free it wouldn't make sense to complain about it, but it's not free. Healthcare is not a basic right, anymore than a person is guaranteed that they will have any teeth left when they are sixty.

There is disparity in the practice and cost of medicine as well as its effectiveness. Medical knowledge is often gained from those who have been left with no hope but to undergo experimental procedures, whether the individuals are poor or wealthy. Many a wealthy individual has had fortunes depleted because they listened to the false promises of a wayward doctor who promised them something that couldn't be done, or that wasn't necessary. If resources are limited, as they indeed are, a guaranteed system would ration what is provided and result in long delays and denial of what was initially deemed a basic right, based on the benefit it would achieve (i.e. who deserves one of the few hearts available for transplant).

Last of all, it is never a good idea in a democracy to rob an individual of life, property, or liberty without their consent. This consent is given in a fundamental way through citizenship where an individual agrees to be bound by laws and constitutional ideals. Property ownership is a basic right in the United States of America. It enables individuals to pursue happiness according to their own choices and actions, as well as bearing the consequence of such actions. To rob one individual of property to 'help' another is a denial of liberty. Such help should be given voluntarily and preferably without the intervention of a government. The government should enable such help but not mandate it. When it is mandated (done without consent) it automatically puts citizens on unequal ground, some being made more privileged than another. To put it another way, to take away one individuals property, however it was acquired, and give it to another separates 'cause' from 'effect'; it transforms liberty into servitude. In the current state of things the government overstepped its bounds and did things it doesn't have a right to do.

Nobody knows how long they are going to live, it is not a basic right and it can not be mandated. How many votes would it take to extend your life? Some individuals choose to die and leave what they have for the needs of those that will remain. Others would spend everything they have (or everything you have) to live just one more day. It is a good thing for people to help one another and every effort made to assist individuals in extending and improving their life should be made. When all is said and done it is not in mortal's hands, God makes the final decision.

Many help and assist in providing things for those that cannot afford them by voluntarily giving of their time, talents and possesions. The government should enable this process, not stand in the way of it.

Et tu Blood?

Your 1st assumption is painfully wrong.
Healthcare for everyone is definitely not free.
Your tax base must cover all the governments's whims, including your so-called right to free health care.
Not to mention the unintended consequences of such a system wreaking havoc on the morals of humanity.
What is the cost of a life again in a pluralist pool?
Meaning, you really want grandpa or grandma to get that brain tumor removed so he/she can attend a grandchild's wedding, but socialized medicine accounting rule #673 cuts off this procedure due to poor return on investment.
Solution: Take a medical tourist trip to a for-profit medical facility that greedily wants your money, not your love or devotion.
And grandma/grandpa has to pay for this with their own money even after contributing to the national health pool in taxes.

Exactly because you have a guarantee of health care, countless thousands of wasteful medical visits choke your physicians and clinics with mundane queues, when, if push came to shove, and everyone felt a sting in their wallet, would-be patients would think twice before strolling to the doctor for a headache or flu-like symptoms.

Better you champion the last bastion of freedom over here than ride the slippery slope of chronyism, marginalized medical procedures, and accounting decisions on what life costs? Over here, life costs dearly, so dear, please mind your costs.

What you mistake for coldness is resistance to forced redistribution of hard earned money to ungrateful recipients.
Charity on the other hand, is what you seek.
Removing the middle man(government), I can direct my money at my choosing to those truly deserving.

In the end, health care is only one of many commodities that are flitted about as a lure to your spending dollar.
Medicine is no different than a playstation or a motor boat or a vacation home.
All nice things to have, but each citizen must decide which they can afford and cannot.
LOL, you prefer these decisions made by an unloving, disconnected government?
How long before they rule a 2nd childbirth too expensive?

I think the health care system really needs work. I personally believe we should adopt a similar system that Canada uses.
As a US National Guard soldier I pay a ton of cash for my health care. I can only imagine what a citizen has to pay.

Note: I don't pay attention to politics anymore. Working class chumps like myself always lose in the long run.

Blood wrote:Here in the UK where healthcare is FREE to everybody, everybody supports, trusts and absolutely agrees that it is essential for a free united and functional society that everyone regardless of means has access to free healthcare.

You should never assume you speak for everybody: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI6uyhRc ... re=related

Blood wrote:The USA is seen to the world (especially here in the UK) as the last bastion of true freedom and democracy.

Ditto the above.

skywalk wrote: Muslims in the EU?

The vast majority of the population of Turkey may be Muslims but it has a secular system of government based on the French model and it is a member of NATO. Turkey should absolutely be allowed to join the EU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MdrnyZusSc

skywalk wrote:

Trond wrote:

the.weavster wrote:EU, a dreadful Socialist quagmire

The EU is extremely pro-capitalistic. In fact it was started as a trade union, and the free flow of goods and services is still the main priority that takes precedence over basically anything. Get your facts straight.

I think it is more correct to say, the EU is a collection of failed or nearly failing Socialist economies.

Actually, I think I was quite correct in what I said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6gM7XOLE5s&NR=1


Normally when I hear a politician speak I feel like throttling the bugger, but there's an exception to every rule.

Interesting to read. The misc points of view depends on priorities upon such values like liberty, property, well being, equity... What is the most important for you?

djes wrote:Interesting to read. The misc points of view depends on priorities upon such values like liberty, property, well being, equity... What is the most important for you?

Liberty trumps all.

This is a test:
Suppose you have a great and stupendous idea and really truly think the whole world should adopt your new idea for their betterment.
(Doesn't matter what it is or does.)
So, you naturally start to tell others about your new idea.
But, you are frustrated at the willingness of others to put your new idea into practice.
Maybe they don't trust you or don't understand your idea fully?
So, you ask your local government to get involved.
You begin to "lobby" your representatives and proclaim how awesome your idea is and its benefit to society.
"Really, everyone should be using your idea."

Well, after many dinners and personal sessions with your politicians, they begin to agree with you.
They suggest it be made a law, that all must adopt your idea.
"It's for their own good."
But, to get the law written and voted and passed, it will take much campaigning and therefore funds.

STOP!
At this point you see where things are going.

In the free market, any product or idea's success is determined by all people freely choosing yay or nay.
With government's products or ideas, no matter how well or ill intentioned, only a hand few decide for you.
And their decision is backed by force.

The test of the free market is the truest.
Now, go back and create more ideas and products and let all the world decide its value.