kung fu bear , wow - is this for real ?

[Perkin]

@Thorium
when I was a kid we used to have a cat that used to be able to knock the front door knocker.
(It was quite low down).

A different dog (from those in other post), if you didn't feed him enough, used to open the cupboard and chew the tins and eat the dogfood, we eventually had to wedge the door shut.

Not all animals are smart though, we had another cat that used sleep in the middle of the road(when it was sunny, as the road was warm). It actually died of old age.(15-16 yrs old)

@Num3
Are you sure it's a cats?

Back to topic
I think the footage of the bear has been edited, to make it appear more amazing that it would have been.

[SFSxOI]

I dont think its a fake. The bear isnt using a tool, it's just playing. It just looks amazing, i dont think the bear actualy trained that, it's just doing it.

There are more videos of that bear existing and it even was in TV news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poEwkIPKn3w

By the way: My cats can open doors and i dont trained them at all.

A stick is a tool. Might just be a stick to you, but a stick is one of the very first tools man kind learned to use in the form of a club to hunt prey. A tool at its basics is anything that can be used to perform a function or task which either enhances our own ability or helps complete the task. One of the biggest games in the world, Baseball, is nothing more at its very basics then using a tool (a stick - baseball bat - club) to hit a ball (prey).

Did you think I meant the bear opened up a tool box nearby and pulled out a wrench?



Your cats open doors because its a learned response from the times when they were able to open the door (as in it wasn't fully latched or blocked or obstructed in some way) to get to where they were going. Your cat did not jump up and put a key in the lock and turn it then open the door, because its not within the scope of their concept realization process in this stage of their evolution naturally. Sure I guess one could in some way train a cat to do that, but its unlikely they will do it on their own as a cognitive concept process understanding. Its a part of the hunter instinct of cats to explore places for prey, when they encountered the door and it allowed them to pass it just fit into their natural instinct to explore for prey thats all. I had this cat that would fly across the room from a jump off the counter almost 10 feet away to hang on the curtains at the back patio door. Scared the crap out of my wife when he did it but It did not mean the cat could actually fly, the cat was naturally attracted to the slight movement of the curtains from the movement of air from the central air vent. The attraction to movement is a hunter response also. We seem to want to apply known familar human definitions to animals, but in the end animals will only do things which in some way fits into their evolutionary capabilities.

If it wasn't for the domestication of cats we would all be dead

As for dogs, I used to play frisbee with my dog to get him some exercise. But when i was not there he did not go out and find someone else to play frisbee with (although sometimes he would actually get the frisbee and bring it to me signalling that he wanted to play). The reason the dog caught on to frisbee, or chases a ball, or fetches a stick, is multi-fold - one: we have domesticated them to the point where they aim to please and attempt to mimic our actions in some way, two: its also within the natural capability of the animal to be able to jump and catch prey (which is also a hunter instinct), and three: sometimes its fun for them also as they naturally love to run and jump.

[Thorium]

A tool at its basics is anything that can be used to perform a function or task which either enhances our own ability or helps complete the task.

Thats my point. The stick is not a tool, because the bear dont uses it as a tool. The bear dont tries to do a specific task. It just plays with it, like a cat plays with anything it finds. This is just natural and has nothing to do with intelligence. Evolution is the wrong term. Evolution dont means more intelligent.

[SFSxOI]

A tool at its basics is anything that can be used to perform a function or task which either enhances our own ability or helps complete the task.

Thats my point. The stick is not a tool, because the bear dont uses it as a tool. The bear dont tries to do a specific task. It just plays with it, like a cat plays with anything it finds. This is just natural and has nothing to do with intelligence. Evolution is the wrong term. Evolution dont means more intelligent.

The video is faked, but if it wern't; The act of the twirls in the video are cognitive because they require coordination so they were "planned" because predicting where the stick is or will be in relation to the bear is important so the bear will know when to catch and that means planning to catch, and planning is a cognitive act. The bear does not have have the capability to do the twirls with nothing, so apparently from the video he realized he could use the stick to do the twirls. Thus the bear is aware of the connection, or some connection, between the stick and the sudden relational ability between the stick and the twirl for him (her?) to perform the planned cognitive action of the trick. Thus the bear used a tool to demonstrate an enhanced capability he did not have before getting the stick, therefore, the bear is aware of some connection between objects in the surrounding area and the capability to perform a planned cognitive task, and used a tool (the stick) to do so.

Cognitive thought for instant tool adaptation takes evolution to do so, just as we evolved and realized there was a connection between that stick (club) and the ability to get food by relating the stick to the prey. That stage of relational instant tool manipulation evolution is not available to the bear. If it was then bears would use sticks (clubs) to kill prey sometimes (and other things other than knock them around or chew on them and apparently doing tricks with sticks all the time) but they don't because they are adapted with claws for taking prey by evolution. Bears just do not have the relational evolutionary capability to do the tricks in the video either physically or via cognitive capability. It would really creep me out knowing there was a bear out there with the ability to plan and actually use a stick to achieve a specific task as the video portrays because it would mean human kind would indeed be an endangered species sooner then we expected.

The cat, well, what can you say about cats except cats are cats and will always be cats. Actually hunting is an act of intelligence, if you don't think so then lets see how many field mice (given the chance) you can lay on the door step using only your legs and teeth and claws, oh wait, hopefully you don't have claws - because your not adapted to the hunt like the cat is, using those to advantage leverage against prey like a cat does takes intelligence to understand timing. Given a chance, the cat will out do you every time because he/she is a lot smarter then you in this respect with thought for the hunt and stalk. Watch a cat as it stalks a bird that keeps moving, as he/she makes tactical moves towards the prey and knows just when to stop or move or strike. Sure, they do miss sometimes, but the act of "knowing" the timing vs just doing it very strongly implies intelligence and indeed scientists have show a certain "intelligent" aspect. Might not be intelligence as we understand it or want to think it is or is not, but it is intelligence.

I still say if it wasn't for the domestication of cats we would all be dead

[Demivec]

Cognitive thought for instant tool adaptation takes evolution to do so, just as we evolved and realized there was a connection between that stick (club) and the ability to get food by relating the stick to the prey. That stage of evolution is not available to the bear.

@SFXO1: I agree with Thorium, 'evolution' is the wrong word. Perhaps using 'planning', 'cognition', or simply 'intelligence' would be better.

[SFSxOI]

I can understand that, but cognition for planning with instant tool adaptation (and understanding its relation to the task) is an evolutionary step, thus evolution is required to get to that step. The word "Evolution" is, and its derivatives are, used correctly used here. The video implies an evolutionary step the bear does not posess (which also means the video is fake). But I see your point.

[Demivec]

I can understand that, but cognition for planning with instant tool adaptation (and understanding its relation to the task) is an evolutionary step, thus evolution is required to get to that step. The word "Evolution" is, and its derivatives are, used correctly used here. The video implies an evolutionary step the bear does not posess (which also means the video is fake). But I see your point.

The evolutionary step the bear took, if you persist in calling it that, is in video editing.

Here is are some elements in the video that demonstrates its 'fakeness'. The bear starts out fumbling with a stick on a slope with a path in front of it. The camera moves off of the bear for 4 seconds and when it returns the bear is now micraculously on top of the slope sitting and spinning the same or perhaps a different stick. The bear basically twirls and spins this stick the remainder of the video. It is interesting to note then that the stick is not always the same length. It has short dimensions at 0:49 to 1:09, and later at 2:14 to 2:40. While the dimensions are much greater at 1:52, 2:53, and 3:07.

The odd placement of limbs has already been mentioned. Here is an additional one, at 2:14 there is a line across the bear's forearm where a longer stick would've crossed it.

[SFSxOI]

I can understand that, but cognition for planning with instant tool adaptation (and understanding its relation to the task) is an evolutionary step, thus evolution is required to get to that step. The word "Evolution" is, and its derivatives are, used correctly used here. The video implies an evolutionary step the bear does not posess (which also means the video is fake). But I see your point.

The evolutionary step the bear took, if you persist in calling it that, is in video editing.

I was making the point that the bear could not have done whats shown in the video because he/she can't, not that the video showed a miracle of evolution. Instead, that the bear could not have possibly done those things because he/she does not have the evolutionary capability to do so, and thats why overall its faked. Of course its video editing.