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Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:04 am
by GWarner
I'm just waiting for them to come down in price to something reasonable, then I'll replace my mechanical drives with SSDs both for reliability and speed.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:58 am
by Rings
For all german reading users ,
the german computermagazine 'CT' had
a 10 pages review over SSD's . They explain in
details every reason , pro,con,speed ,writecycles
and a lot more. Also they tested 16 different SSD's
against each other and again fast Harddisk's and RAID's .
More info here .

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:00 pm
by SFSxOI
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/20 ... disk.ars/3

Just thought it was an interesting read in some ways.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:07 pm
by Berikco
Finally my Intel SSD 160GB arrived yesterday :)

Installed W7 on my laptop HP with 2GB ram
12 seconds to boot

Cloned the SSD to the original 160GB SATA disk
takes 47 seconds to boot W7

Starting outlook 2007 for the first time (after boot)
less than 1 sec on SSD
6 secs on HD

:mrgreen:

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 pm
by blueznl
3 years later... :shock: Yeah, I'm a late adapter I guess :-)

I just bought a Samsung 840 Evo to replace my aging WD Velociraptor Raid 0 pair. Few years ago I had a first attempt with XP and an Intel drive which didn't work out, now it's a rematch, this time with Windows 7 and the Samsung Evo...

Just a question to all SSD users: did you move your temp folder to a regular drive? I see comments all over the place, some pro, some con. I could image some issues if you're packing / unpacking all day using the temp folder, but for every day use... Dunno.

Currently my second drive (containing the temp folder) was a Caviar Black 1TB. With mechanical drives I prefer to have the temp folder on another drive, and some testing seemed to keep the system just a minor little bit faster with the temp drive not on the Raid 0. Could be psychological though :-)

Anyway, a Caviar black has 64 MB of cache and is pretty fast, so it did a good job. This time I'm thinking leaving the temp file on the SSD. Any suggestions / advice?

(Is PureBasic actually using the temp folder?)

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:11 pm
by Thorium
blueznl wrote: Just a question to all SSD users: did you move your temp folder to a regular drive? I see comments all over the place, some pro, some con. I could image some issues if you're packing / unpacking all day using the temp folder, but for every day use... Dunno.
No. All the fear about limited write cycles is nonsense.
You can calculate it, just look up the specs of your SSD and how many write cycles the cells can take. And thats a minimum of guaranteed cycles. In reality they take much more befor they break down. I did calculated it for my SSD as i bought it. And i got about 30 years life time (show me a HDD that lasts that long) if i write half of the disk every day (which i dont do).
Now it's 3 years later and not a single cell has failed.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:39 pm
by Tenaja
Thorium wrote:...I did calculated it for my SSD as i bought it. And i got about 30 years life time (show me a HDD that lasts that long) if i write half of the disk every day (which i dont do).
Do the Temp and swap files change when you edit a document, or change program focus? If so, your calculations are about 10x too generous (to be generous).

I know I swap back and forth between programs much more than 10x a day, and depending on which programs and files I have open, each switch causes a read and a new write to the swap files. If Windows does not force relocation of the swap file with each write, then that wear is a lot more than 2/day.

Even with PB alone, I recompile much more than 10x a day; sometimes 100's of times, depending on the status of the project I am working on. If that Temp file is located in the same place on the drive (hdd or ssd) that position will get a lot more wear than two writes per day.

I do not know the specifics behind temp and swap file locations, but I am just saying if they are not relocated with each write, then your calculations are nowhere near accurate.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:09 pm
by GoodNPlenty
Tenaja wrote: Do the Temp and swap files change when you edit a document, or change program focus? If so, your calculations are about 10x too generous (to be generous).
I do not know the specifics behind temp and swap file locations, but I am just saying if they are not relocated with each write, then your calculations are nowhere near accurate.
On Windows systems the temp files change often and depending on memory utilization and other factors so does the swap file. What I have done to reduce wear on my SSD and improve performance is to change the location of the temp file by changing the environmental variables %TMP% and %TEMP% to a ram drive folder such as R:\Temp. This also works for temporary internet files in Internet Explorer and other browsers. If you have enough memory or a big enough ram drive you can relocate the swap file to the ram drive or disable the swap file altogether. I chose to relocate my swap file to a standard hard drive. Although many are available I use a free RAM disk application called SoftPerfect RAM Disk. Be sure to use Add Boot Disk from the main menu which will create a RAM disk available immediately on system startup.

http://www.softperfect.com/products/ramdisk/

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:15 pm
by Thorium
Tenaja wrote: I know I swap back and forth between programs much more than 10x a day, and depending on which programs and files I have open, each switch causes a read and a new write to the swap files. If Windows does not force relocation of the swap file with each write, then that wear is a lot more than 2/day.

Even with PB alone, I recompile much more than 10x a day; sometimes 100's of times, depending on the status of the project I am working on.
So? A cell can take millions of writes befor it fails. The controler of the SSD will distribute writes over the cells (it relocates data automaticly), so even if you write the same file twice, it will be 2 write accesses to different cells. On top of that SSD's have cells in reserve in case cells start to fail, they will be replaced. That counters cells that only last the minimum of cycles.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:27 pm
by PMV
Even if you reduce the calculated lifetime from 30 years to 3 ...
For me thats the normal time when i replace a HDD because its
to slow. For SSD, that will not really be different. So at the end,
just make sure that windows knows it is a SSD and deactivate
all the (stupid) performance-tools like defrag, prefetch and how
they are called. And you will be safe.

And btw. when i buy something to have better performance,
i would be feel stupid to not use that performance at limit. :oops:
Especially when its that expensive. :wink:

MFG PMV

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:04 pm
by Thorium
I just checked the SSD's S.M.A.R.T. values with CrystakDiskInfo. Unfortunatly my SSD does not report the write count.

However after 3 years it shows no signs of getting old. And i do use it for the swap file and it was a cheap one.

power-on hours: 12834
program fail count: 0
erase fail count: 0
used reserved block count: 0
unused reserved block count: 1920
program fail count: 0
erase fail count: 0
uncorrectable error count: 0
ECC error rate: 0

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:19 am
by blueznl
Well, I can confirm that an SSD speeds up things. Unfortunately, NVidia seriously screwed up their NForce chipset (which I already knew) so I'll have to live with below par transfer rates in the SATA1..1.5 range (180 Mbps or so). I know this SSD can do around 500, but not on this mainboard. (Though frankly I haven't tried to hard to twiddle and tweak this time.)

Worse though, is that Windows 7 made a half hearted attempt at properly using the SSD. (Mind you, brand new install.) Yes, it enabled trim, but it forgot to disable superfetch, prefetch, indexing, etc. so a little additional manual work was required to keep the SSD in shape. It should be fine now.

Then again, it is indeed faster than my Velociraptor Raid 0. Not necessarily much in transfer speed itself, but in search time. Things work definitely faster.

Oh well. This PC is beginning to age anyway. If either the power supply or the mainboard goes, I'll have to say goodby to this Dell XPS BTX and return to some homebuild system. At least I know I'll have a fast SSD at hand then :cry:

As for the discussion of placing your temp file on an SSD or regular HDD. It (lifespan wise) doesn't probably matter much, but it's probably performance wise not that important either. Why? Well, temp folders are typically used for small files, often written and removed. Thus the main speed advantage of an SSD (reading) is partially annihilated by all that writing (except perhaps for the Samsung Evo, but alas). Obviously, a large cache on your HDD helps here, so do higher SATA speeds. For example the Caviar Black with its 64 MB cache helps if files stay below 64 MB :-))

BUT don't forget Windows which does write caching as well, so files are being written asynchronous to the disc, thus if files stay inside the windows buffers (dunno' how large those buffers are) it won't matter much if the temp folder resides on a regular HDD. Even the temp stuff windows dumps in there doesn't seem to matter much.

Now if files written to the temp folder are getting VERY LARGE the SSD will slow down, as its slower in writing, in which case its prime advantages over a regular HDD won't help that much (access time and read speed). Funny there's little consideration of Windows caching when you visit all those websites dedicated to the wonders of SSD :shock:

Conclusion: put it where you like it, it won't matter much, unless you have a drive that consistently writes fast in which case it might be better to keep it on the SSD.

Lifespan-wise it's probably relative. If you're a very intensive SSD user, you'll probably be able to afford a new SSD after three years or so 8) And if you're using it primarily as a small boot drive, then there's little writing thus little wear thus longer life span.

Oh well. I'll return to my poor performing SSD, and cherish the thought that with a disastrous breakdown of my PC, at least I'm ready for top of the line disk speeds on my next rig. To end with a dutch quote:

"Wie tot blijdschap bereid is vind zelfs in de hel een gezellig plekje dicht bij het vuur."

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:24 am
by Zach
I love my SSD's

I've got an older 64GB Kingston I have a Linux install sitting on at the moment, I used to use it for a game cache but repurposed it for the moment.. And a newer Corsair 120GB for my Windows stuff.

Its one of the single best upgrades you can give to a machine these days to improve overall speed and reaction time.

I can't wait until prices reach parody with mechanicals for TB sized drives. It'll be awesome.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:43 am
by Opcode
blueznl wrote:3 years later... :shock: Yeah, I'm a late adapter I guess :-)

I just bought a Samsung 840 Evo to replace my aging WD Velociraptor Raid 0 pair. Few years ago I had a first attempt with XP and an Intel drive which didn't work out, now it's a rematch, this time with Windows 7 and the Samsung Evo...

Just a question to all SSD users: did you move your temp folder to a regular drive? I see comments all over the place, some pro, some con. I could image some issues if you're packing / unpacking all day using the temp folder, but for every day use... Dunno.

Currently my second drive (containing the temp folder) was a Caviar Black 1TB. With mechanical drives I prefer to have the temp folder on another drive, and some testing seemed to keep the system just a minor little bit faster with the temp drive not on the Raid 0. Could be psychological though :-)

Anyway, a Caviar black has 64 MB of cache and is pretty fast, so it did a good job. This time I'm thinking leaving the temp file on the SSD. Any suggestions / advice?

(Is PureBasic actually using the temp folder?)
You will love the Samsung 840 Evo it's the best drive on the market right now. Also be sure to check out the RAPID technology in the Magician software. You do not have to do anything once you install the drive and OS. Windows 7 and later, and newer linux kernels both automatically configure the OS for the SSD. What I mean by that is Windows will automatically turn off its defragmenter tool since it is not need to save on unnecessary writes. As for all of the "SSD's are limited to write cycles" rumors, it is all true. Tho they were not clear as to how many the drive will handle before it does die. The Samsung 840 250GB was put to the test not once but twice against a synthetic test. You might find the results a bit shocking.
During the test we received many requests from readers to also test the data retention. It's a valid point, as it could very well be the case that after many write cycles, the memory cells could lose their data when they don't receive power. To find out, we took a second system and turned it off half a day each week after about 3,000 cycles. We even turned it off an entire weekend. It didn't run into any problems, so the retention part seems to be in order.

The second SSD had its first re-allocated sector on May 28 after 3,152 cycles and 745 TiB of written data. The first uncorrectable error occurred on May 30 after 3,247 cycles and 768 TiB of written data. It has completely died yet, and it's passed 4,000 cycles now, but it's also accumulated more than 58,000 uncorrectable errors. We'd call it clinically dead.

So let's calculate the lifespan. We consider the first uncorrectable error to be the end of the SSD. For the first one that was after 764 TiB of written data, and for the second one that was after 768 TiB of written data. That the two failed so close together could indicate that the lifespan of the Samsung 840 SSDs is fairly constant. However, two SSDs aren't representative of the thousands that are out there.

If we take the 764 TiB and an average of 10 GiB of writes per day, we arrive at a lifespan of 214 years. Keep in mind that we sequentially write and fill the SSD which gives us write amplification factor of only 1.04 or 1.05. That's the difference between the write commands sent to the SSD and the writes executed by the SSD internally. The general assumption is a WAF of around 3.0 for normal consumer use with SSDs that don't employ compression tricks. That translates to a lifespan of 75 years. Even when you push an SSD to the max by downloading lots of movies everyday up to an average of 30 GiB per day, the SSD will still last you 24 years. Nomatter how you use it, it will last longer than the period you plan on using it (most people like to add more capacity after a certain time). A functional lifespan of 10 years is already unusually high for a storage medium.

With an average lifespan of 75 years for the TLC memory chips, consumers have absolutely nothing to worry about. It doesn't mean the SSD will actually last 75 years, but the number of available write cycles will not be the bottleneck. That means we will amend our conclusion from a couple months ago. A Samsung 840 SSD with TLC memory is just as reliable as SSDs with MLC memory, and the type of memory should not be a reason to choose one SSD over another.
Full article here if you're interested.

Re: Fun with SSD's

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:11 pm
by blueznl
Opcode wrote: You will love the Samsung 840 Evo it's the best drive on the market right now. Also be sure to check out the RAPID technology in the Magician software.
Which a. wouldn't install, and b. might not be that effective, Windows itself already does a lot of caching. The few tests dealing with Rapid made it look like just another read / write cache. And c. I have a mere 4 GB of Ram, throwing away 1 GB to a cache might not make too much sense.
Opcode wrote: You do not have to do anything once you install the drive and OS. Windows 7 and later
Well, that's if your hardware is properly recognized, I did not have to enable trim, but I did have to disable prefetch, defragment and so on.

As for the tests... if it fails after the next 270+ years, then that's good enough for me :lol: