You think your having a bad day ?

[Kaeru Gaman]

so all proven is, that Cthulhu can dream I was sitting at my computer reading a post that contains some code that spits out some text and constants and calculations...

nice job, but he lately dreamt I seen some animated pictures in some funny box...
pretending to be a story about two ideas of entities who didn't like each other but did a good job in rescuing the idea of the entity of the sister of one of the first two, blowing up the crew and house of a fourth idea of an entity called the bad guy...
was mediocre entertaining except the ridiculous part the two ideas were called "tango" and "cash" by some meaningless wordplay...
... but Cthulhu often dreams bullshit, it seems...

[blueznl]

You watch too many movies dubbed in German

[SFSxOI]

Real is the total sum of your personal, emotional, and belief experience, that affects what you do, when you do it, and how you think, and how you relate to the rest of the world...

Funny way to explain what is the animalistical irrational understanding of reality.
So, if living beings had never existed, then there would never existed stars or materia or densities differences? Wouldn't planets rotate around and travel around there? Wouldn't exists temperature differences, or electromagnetism?
Man, reality has almost nothing to do with the so called living beings in or out earth, and still less with men.
It is a pity there are so much ones with so little neurons that do not allow a wider view, but a narrow one and only up to 1 hand span max.
:roll:

I wasn't talking about the physical reality. I was talking about the influencing perceptual reality of the human experience in relation to individual being interactions with the world and the influences it may have upon that interaction. Its different to some degree for everyone.

And...if living beings had never existed we would not know about the physical now would we.

[Psychophanta]

I wasn't talking about the physical reality. I was talking about the influencing perceptual reality of the human experience in relation to individual being interactions with the world and the influences it may have upon that interaction. Its different to some degree for everyone.

But you seem to completely disregard or ignore the fact that human perception, experiences, interations with the environment or with other human, etc, etc, is all mechanical.
Human is a machine composed by more machines; a device composed by other devices. Just like any other conception of the environment... It is known that: it is not a magic.
I don't say i or anybody know the nature of those mechanics but if you think is not mechanics, the you fall directly to the metaphysics, what is to say mysticism, just like Kaeru does, for example, and mysticism is also a mechanism of the brain that becames in absurds, infinite stupidness, and so on, so on, all of it things that cause badbeing, absurdity, stupidness... to oneself, to others and also to environment.
...

[Kaeru Gaman]

But you seem to completely disregard or ignore the fact that human perception, experiences, interations with the environment or with other human, etc, etc, is all mechanical.

and you are completely ignoring the fact that neither neurology nor physics can really tell what consciousness and perception are.

[Psychophanta]

and you are completely ignoring the fact that neither neurology nor physics can really tell what consciousness and perception are.

Yes, in part it is known , but in part not.
But with metaphysical people, like you seem to be, mankind will never know it completely because you tend to invent things and then blindly believe on it. Which is the top of the nonsense, and mankind seem to be expert on that, look at 1000000 years ago until now.
...

[Kaeru Gaman]

mankind is expert in relying on things they are told.
in ceturies gone by it was religion, nowadays it's technology.
the belief in technology and science blindes the simple man just like religion did before.

but faith in technology will not safe anyone when the system collapses.
only an open and critical mind may do.

three centuries ago, "accepting science and technology" was the way to be open minded.
nowadays, a more philosophical way is necessary.

[SFSxOI]

I wasn't talking about the physical reality. I was talking about the influencing perceptual reality of the human experience in relation to individual being interactions with the world and the influences it may have upon that interaction. Its different to some degree for everyone.

But you seem to completely disregard or ignore the fact that human perception, experiences, interations with the environment or with other human, etc, etc, is all mechanical.
Human is a machine composed by more machines; a device composed by other devices. Just like any other conception of the environment... It is known that: it is not a magic.
I don't say i or anybody know the nature of those mechanics but if you think is not mechanics, the you fall directly to the metaphysics, what is to say mysticism, just like Kaeru does, for example, and mysticism is also a mechanism of the brain that becames in absurds, infinite stupidness, and so on, so on, all of it things that cause badbeing, absurdity, stupidness... to oneself, to others and also to environment.
...

I'm not ignoring anything. Its in general, not emprical. How you get from thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, or interaction, and a thousand of other things that affect the preception of reality for a person, to the mechanical i'll never know. Your own posts on the subject portray your own way of thinking about this, and thus even your own posts substiante the general concept, because obviously you think about it differently and thus the reality of the subject is different to you then it might be for someone else. Even if its all mechanical or chemical, it still is different from person to person, and those mechanics or chemical interactions still affect the way we perceive reality but only provide the method that enables us to perceive it the way we do individually. Not everything in the world is quantifiable and measurable or can be placed in a neat little container somewhere so we can point to it and say "Oh look, there is that much of that exactly". There is nothing 'meta-physical' about it at all, its just something that is regardless of how its caused or the reasons for it, and obviously it exists because if it didn't there would never be a different opinion.

[Psychophanta]

Indeed language is a big trouble to communication, as it is only a small tool for it.
Well, anyway trust me when say that in the current conception (of the ones who really more know in the world about the nature), the "mechanical" word embraces all, and with "all" i mean chemistry, psychiatry, perception, feeling, etc. because the state-of-the-art in nature knowledge just clasifies nature in 2 fields:
- Macroscopic bodies mechanics.
- Quantum mechanics.

And til now, apart of the infinite amount of tales, art, superstitions, etc. that go out from the metaphysics, those 2 things are the pursued way, the main trunk of every human branch science or knowledge.

Again, i guess we are not in a synchroniced semantics, so don't mind if you don't get the message.

[Rook Zimbabwe]

Reality is how you define the world around you... my reality has shapes, images and colors I percieve smells sounds and tastes that I understand and is more than likely NOT what you see, percieve or smell or taste!

My reality is my reality... KCC's reality is something else! (I am just teasing you KCC!)

Skinner and his reaserch on Rats showed that rats percieve things in the same areas of their brains only about 70% of the time. Weather this is because some rats re insane, some were emotionally percieveing their universe or some were just thinking in a different manner... no one can say... the rats declined to comment!

When I see red I know I see red... I also figure you see something similar but probably not exact. Your ideas of red are filtered through your attitudes, responses, and opinions about red. Just as mine are.

Red is red... just more than likely not the same red.

Language is that way too. My wife cannot pronounce the W sound without a struggle... She forgets to say it... she replaces U with W... I know what Uall sounds like (Wall) and Uednesday... (Wednesday) etc. It is both because she spoke Chinese for a large part of her life and because she has only a small talent for language... For the record she mispronounces Chinese too!



Truth is what you make of it.

Truth is the apperception of individual elements of reality.

To the disordered mind, truth is whoever they agree with no matter what the facts and video on record...

The only universal truth is that there is no real universal truth.

[Psychophanta]

Then, there are as many realities as brains? 1 reality per reptilian, mamalian,etc that is existing now and all that existed in the past, and all of the future?
Oh oh, really sounds funny, something must be very wrong!!

The main think to understand is that truth is nothing but a human concept.
After that is understood, truth is only one, or maybe more than one.
But of course, in any case it have almost nooooothing to do with humans or any other "alive" being.

I you don't understand that very well, or you just think it is not so that, then be sure you fall plainly in the mysticism.

[Kaeru Gaman]

> The main think to understand is that truth is nothing but a human concept.

and what is reality?

reality is just a convention a society agrees with in order to manage everyday life.

[Psychophanta]

Well, that is a worldly meaning of the "reality" word. I think it is correct:
reality is just a convention a society agrees with in order to manage everyday and everybody's life.
But the context in what i tried it to explain is much more large, not so mean to restrict it to a worldly meaning, you see?

[Kaeru Gaman]

I think I get what you're after...
the problem is just... what you claim to be "real" is just your opinion.

even from a quantum physical point of view, there are so many strange things beyond the things.
Hawking hinself said, that sometimes it seems that the universe we percieve is just a projection of a higher dimensional universe.
that would mean, the higher one is to be considered "real" and not this one.

when I read what you write, it seems you still stick to Newton, ignoring already Einstein, not to talk about Hawking at all.

what you do by your "reality claims" is a game that would've been nice to play with Kant and his contemporaries,
nowadays it's not a progressive point of view anymore.

[blueznl]

Eventually this discussion will lead to Existentialism and Non-Aristotelism, and then eventually someone will think that's an euphemism for Scientology.

Okay...

Let's get over that before that happens! Existentialism is somewhat of a dead end, but in some ways the Non-A or Null-A crowd had it right.

Consider this:

1. Every observer sees his own reality.

2. Every observer's identity (ego, person, whatever) is formed and transformed by that perception of reality.

3. Every observer filters (colours?) his / her own perception of that reality.

I seriously believe no two people see the same world. They cannot. They may agree on similarities so they can cooperate, but they never see the same world.

Continueing that line of thought, it's clear to me that the observer does affect the outcome of an observation. Even if you assume the event observed appears the same for all observers, then still his / her interpretation would differ from person to person.

Then finally the observer's mind is nothing more but less the result of countless earlier experiences. But if he / she is unaware of own filtering / colouring, you may end up with rather twisted results.

Like me