Is it bad DRM?

[Tipperton]

securom drm is NOT just a copy protection, copy protection prevent you from copying something and don't go beyond that.

That's right. SecuROM did start off as just a disc check and disc copy protection system, but with delivery via download becoming more and more popular it has evolved to also be a disc-less online activation system as well as a dsic check copy protection system. For example most of the games on Direct-2-Drive are protected by SecuROM.

what on earth give them the right to say, that a game have to be installed only three time ?

The fact that they own the game and you don't. When you buy the game you are only buying the right to use the game under their terms, not yours. If you don't like they're terms, don't buy the game.

for information. impulse is not a drm platform but only a digital distribution platform, you can run the games without impulse runing. also the games distributed on impulse are drm free

You could be right, I didn't read too far into what Impulse was, I stopped reading as soon as it sounded like another Steam.

As for whether the software on Impulse is DRM free, I believe that would depend on the vendor just as it does with games on Steam. There are quite a few games on Steam where they are just using Steam as a distribution system and using their own DRM of choice. Examples of this are Bioshock, Crysis, and Crysis Warhead all of which use SecuROM.

For me, given the choice between SecuROM's one time activation or Steam's activate every time you run it, I'll take the one time activation every time.

Especially after some bad experiences with Steam refusing to allow me to play a game because it thought it was in use on another computer. It took a support request and almost a week to get it reset so I could play the game, but by then I was annoyed enough to have already decided to abandon Steam.

For games like Spore with a limited number of activations, my plan is quite simple, keep track of the number of activations I've used, and as soon as I use the last one, contact EA and request a reset. That way even if it takes them several days to a week to do it, it's very unlikely I'll need it until much later and by then it will already have been done and be available for immediate use.

[Trond]

Even if the DRM system does not work as advertised???

How does it not work as advertised? If you are referring to cracks, nothing is uncrackable. Any company that claims their DRM system is uncrackable or will eliminate piracy is lieing to you.
?

I mean this: What if they don't work.

Let's take a real-world example: Game Maker. When I bought it, the online activation process didn't work. That never happens with normal copy protections. I had to email them, and then they did something and then my key worked.

Until I tried it myself I thought everyone was stupid.

Take a look here: http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=280090

1. Some people receive keys that don't work.
2. I recieved a key that worked only once, while an unlimited number of installs on up to 3 computers at the same time was promised
3. Some people never recieve their key at all
4. Many people needed to wait over a week
5. Activation are suddenly revoked

well, mine was activated as Pro and then the next day I somehow had Lite and my Activation Code didnt work...

... and so was I.

My activation claimed to be successful, but I remained in "lite". After exchanging emails for a few days with both Yoyo Games and Softwrap they both referred me to one another. I've been waiting 2 days for a response from either party.

i contacted them 2 days ago and im still waiting an answer :\

EDIT: This is the email i get...

"As requested, we have searched for your purchase details, however we do not find any purchases matching the email address provided. Please ensure you are entering the same email address as the one used when you made you purchase. If you purchased via PayPal, please use the email address that you use to log into the PayPal system.


If you have any further problems retrieving you purchase details, click the link below to contact us and we will be able to assist you.

Regards
Softwrap Support



Contact Softwrap Support"

I contacted them and no answer....

I'm getting the same error as saphiro...

...I was sent a key from yoyo, that one doesn't work, too, btw.

I got the same problem - my new code does not work. I tried my old name but it did not work.

I also never go tthe activation codes. They had no problem collecting their money, of course.

How could sending an activiation code be this hard? I've emailed them and been ingored. I've put my email addr into their "resend activiation" page. I get the auto-replies that I'm not a customer - so they can email me!!!

I'm about to give up and enter a dispute with PayPal. Too many people are having this issue.

The I closed GM, opened it again and bam, unregistered and I cannot register again because it says key has been already used in a successful activation...

(Remember there should not even be an activation count limit...)

I have purchased two copies of gamemaker 7.0 and the first downgraded it self and the second purchased code says its invalid. All attempts to contact softwrap has failed.

I will start proceedings to get my money back. The DRM is a disaster. I'll guess I'll dump GM in favor of Torque.

I sent a calm reasonable detailed message, a week later I sent another calm reasonable detailed message.
It's been over a month since I bought GM7 pro. I STILL HAVENT GOTTEN A MESSAGE AND I SENT THE MESSAGE WHEN IT DIDNT WORK.

And, softwrap doesn NOT reply. If a million people complain, and you answer 100 people in the next 2 days, then ignore everyone else, you aren't replying.

Purchasing the pro version sounds like a risky affair (duh!). So there have been no updates on the issue from YoYo at all? Shouldn't they at least just rework the activation for GM7 (forget GM8) while they take their time working on the next version. Game making tools are the last thing you'd expect to use such draconian protection methods.

You can have a million competitions and even more lime coloured websites on white background but it doesn't really matter if most people can't even get the product they payed for.


PS: Ticket system is a joke.

That's DRM for you.

[pdwyer]

I think that these companies will either evolve or die but at the moment it's a bit of a mess while things calm down. If everyone goes hard core DRM the general public won't "just get used to it" because it makes for an excellent window for cheaper competition to attack the big boys.

Smaller players with less to lose will open up so that if people are prepared to step away from the name brands then they can get what they want and cheaper.

The mums and dads who have no clue can buy from names they know and trust and others can get no drm and half the price from a company we've never heard of but writes good software that we can test out with a demo.

I'm not a hard core capitalist but I think if consumers vote with their wallets then the market will sort this out appropriately. Perhaps I'm just an optimist

It you don't like it, don't buy it, otherwise you are actually supporting it financially.

[case]

For games like Spore with a limited number of activations, my plan is quite simple, keep track of the number of activations I've used, and as soon as I use the last one, contact EA and request a reset. That way even if it takes them several days to a week to do it, it's very unlikely I'll need it until much later and by then it will already have been done and be available for immediate use.

you can request them to do it, but you can't be sure they will do it...

what will you do if they say , so you used up all you're activations now buy agin the game ?

interesting thread about that http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/list/6800.page

note that at first the operator said to the customer :

"Yes, your serial code is valid, unfortunately you have hit your 3 computer limit, which is out of the hands of our Tech Support. I can however refer your problem to the head Technician, and we will phone or E-mail if the issue is resolved."

clearly i don't buy anymore games with this kind of crap protections

and as i said, it's not about copy protection as it's clearly inneficace due to the crack available before the release it's about controling customers that paid, and about prevent them to resell games, i'll alway be against this.

and i boycott the companys that do this, and try to convince all my friend to do the same. i wish that EA lose a lot of money because of they're policy . and i hope also they loose the trial against them about this case.
and have to pay a lot of money because they no more respect the customers and that's us, the customers that make them live, we can live without them, they can't without our money

[Tipperton]

Let's take a real-world example: Game Maker. When I bought it, the online activation process didn't work. That never happens with normal copy protections. I had to email them, and then they did something and then my key worked.

Strange, I also have GameMaker and have never had a single activation problem with it.

(Remember there should not even be an activation count limit...)

That's your opinion.

That's DRM for you.

No, that's just one of many DRM systems for you.

You can't judge the entire DRM industry on one bad example. That would be like saying because VB.NET is bad that all BASICs, including PureBasic, are bad.

At this point I think I'm going to just give up and let everyone believe whatever they want about DRM, even if its totally wrong. It'll then be your problem, not mine.

[Trond]

(Remember there should not even be an activation count limit...)

That's your opinion.

No, that's what the license says. And what Yoyo games said when I bought it as well.

That's DRM for you.

No, that's just one of many DRM systems for you.

Have you ever seen a DRM systems where there has not been problems with activations?

At this point I think I'm going to just give up and let everyone believe whatever they want about DRM, even if its totally wrong. It'll then be your problem, not mine.

What's wrong? Do you think all those people who have problems with the activation of Game Maker are lying about it???????

Btw. it's not my problem - I'll just avoid buying the product. It will be your problem when you have only one customer left because your software uses DRM.

[Tipperton]

No, that's what the license says. And what Yoyo games said when I bought it as well.

That's odd, because I knew in advance there was a 5 (not 3) computer activation limit and was also told that by Yoyo Games.

Have you ever seen a DRM systems where there has not been problems with activations?

Personally, I've never had a problem with activating any game or program that required it.

But I'll answer your question with a question, have you ever seen any software of any type that didn't have problems on some systems? Is your own software you've written totally problem free? If not, what percentage of the problems turn out to be not in your software but with the environment it's being run in?

With that in mind, you can't blame it all on the DRM system. For all you know the DRM system could be working as designed but a firewall or some internet security program is blocking the activation traffic so of course activation doesn't work. Now who's fault is that? Certainly not the DRM system's.

I know from experience that 90% of activation problems come from problem with the system's configuration or environment and not from the DRM system itself.

Also remember that for each person having a problem, how many had no problem at all? That's hard to tell because you never hear from them, they are the silent majority.

What's wrong? Do you think all those people who have problems with the activation of Game Maker are lying about it???????

No, but at the same time I'm not going to take their word for it that the is with the DRM system and not with their environment (firewalls, security software, permissions, etc.).

it's not my problem - I'll just avoid buying the product. It will be your problem when you have only one customer left because your software uses DRM.

It will be your problem when companies decide to stop selling software or games rather than be ripped off by piracy gone wild because they aren't allowed to protect their products.

But go ahead and believe whatever your heart desires... It is after all, just your opinion and you have every right to it and to voice it.

Just as I do mine.

[case]

about the spore case,

what on earth give them the right to say, that a game have to be installed only three time ?

The fact that they own the game and you don't. When you buy the game you are only buying the right to use the game under their terms, not yours. If you don't like they're terms, don't buy the game.

so they have to state it clearly on the box , when i buy something i don't rent it for three uses...

and it's nowhere on the box, it's just stated that i need an internet conection to activate the product.

they stole my money by selling me a game that i can only use three time and i can't have a refund because the details are not clearly printed on the box and that i can't return it unopened ...

so it's unfair because of the restrictions of use
and it's unfair because you can't know the product you buy is subject to such a flaw...
i'll better use a cracked version in this case...

but i don't crack it because i don't wan't to use cracked software . instead i'm boycott EA and avoid buying further drm-ed games.


edit:

It will be your problem when companies decide to stop selling software or games rather than be ripped off by piracy gone wild because they aren't allowed to protect their products.

drm are nothing to do with piracy, as they are innefectives it's just about controling what legit customers do with software, pirats don't have the drm hassle...
and i hope they stop selling games than continuing rip off us with the drm they use atm

[Tipperton]

Windows has DRM that limits your activations to just one machine rather than three or five. That limitation is not spelled out clearly on the box Windows comes in. Are you also boycotting Microsoft and it's products?

Oh and if you're going to boycott any game with DRM, enjoy what you have because you won't be playing many, if any, new games since they all have some form of DRM in them.

[case]

sure i'll do boycott any publisher that use drm that prevent me to soon or later to play the games i buy, i don't talk about copy protections, i don't care as long as they don't tell me , oh you used up all you're installations buy again the game:)

sorry, i can't allow anyone to control what i do with my computer if i change hardware every two weeks i'm expecting the games i own 'the right to play with' to work on the new one without having to phone call to any publisher company that might be dead or use a crack.

what a pitty ...

so i'll boycott and encourage anyone to boycott any company that use these drm


i'm using the rent-a -game platform 'metaboli' so i'm not against renting my software, but when i buy something i'm expecting to really buy it


what next ? drm in the drivers ? sorry you used the three installation of the printer drivers, please buy a new one .

[Tipperton]

Since you didn't answer my question, I'll ask again:

Windows has DRM that limits your activations to just one machine rather than three or five. That limitation is not spelled out clearly on the box Windows comes in. If you change your hardware and Windows needs reactivating you have to call Microsoft to do it.

Are you also boycotting Microsoft and it's products?

[Trond]

No, that's what the license says. And what Yoyo games said when I bought it as well.

That's odd, because I knew in advance there was a 5 (not 3) computer activation limit and was also told that by Yoyo Games.

No, there has always been a limit of 3 computers at the same time.

But I'll answer your question with a question, have you ever seen any software of any type that didn't have problems on some systems?

All software has problems in rare cases. But when a change of copy protection scheme creates literally 500 times more problems, then maybe something is wrong somewhere.

I know from experience that 90% of activation problems come from problem with the system's configuration or environment and not from the DRM system itself.

What's wrong? Do you think all those people who have problems with the activation of Game Maker are lying about it???????

No, but at the same time I'm not going to take their word for it that the is with the DRM system and not with their environment (firewalls, security software, permissions, etc.).

When software is bought, it has clear system requirements. If it doesn't work even when those system requirements are fulfulled, then it's broken.

[Trond]

Windows has DRM that limits your activations to just one machine rather than three or five. That limitation is not spelled out clearly on the box Windows comes in.

Are you also boycotting Microsoft and it's products?

I am using a pirated Windows version at the moment, even though I have a valid license, just because what I bought legally doesn't work. And that's with Windows XP. Is that how it should be?

I am not going to buy Vista or new versions of Office, so in a sense I guess you could say I'm boycotting them.

[pdwyer]

Actually I do this too.

I have an XP license but the activation has problems so I use the disc from the company OEM version which has no activation. The company is aware if it and says that the company license covers it's IT staffs home systems for support reasons.

If I change jobs I'll probably go get another disk from them.

Vista I rarely use but I'm worried as I often end up having to reinstall it on a VM or something to play with it again, I'm wondering how many installs before I blacklist myself and have to get a crack from somewhere (which costs me less time wise than calling MS support)

The company doesn't have the bulk thing with Vista at the moment so using vista at home is a risk as I may find myself locked out of my home PC one day when I need to log in to work during an outage. This risk might be tiny but they don't tell you what it is so you can't tell.

I have office 2003 but I will not buy another version of MS office again I don't think. I think open office is okay most of the time, but by the time office 2003 is too old I'm sure I'll be fine with open office.

I don't use MS media player

I'll probably use chrome instead of IE when it's out of beta

I'm always looking for a better mail client but I haven't found one yet. Thunderbird is good but you can't migrate off it easily if you have problems. outlook 2003 is too heavy, outlook express is not bad so I use it but I'd like something else with features like thunderbird

[case]

that's not because microsoft do a bad thing that we must allow all others company to do more bad things.

note that the drm system of microsoft not working properly as it's easy to get a pirated version of the os, that the pirated version offer all the features of the original without the activation hassle, the same for spore.

so drm fail to stop piracy, so drm are useless in term of software piracy enforcement, so why using drm if this is not to harm the legit customers ?


they are bad because customers can't enjoy the software they buy without having annoyance like cheks, phone calls and other activation trials ...

they are bad because a customer with bad experience about drm will not buy another product using the same drm system.

they are bad because they made cracked version more enjoyables, no hassle, no installation limits, no third party software to play the game, in certain cases the game run smoother without drm.

they are bad because they'are not about copy protections they are controling you're pc.

it's malware

i don't see any good point in favor of drm from a customer view, so as a customer i still continue to boycott company that use them. and i don't care if these company stop making games because they can't no more sell anything as i in all case don't buy they're stuff because of the drm .

and if a company die another will take the place, and maybe with more respect about the customers.