PureBasic Forums - English

I have removed the offer from these forums. But Rings is absolutely right with the German laws. So maybe I should have written: I only sell the license to someone who lives in a country which laws explicit allow to sell licenses (the national law stands over any EULA in most countrys; USA might be an exception)

I found some links related to this topic: (Sorry, german only)

http://www.pcwelt.de/news/recht/74896/index.html
http://www.pcwelt.de/news/software/73797/index.html

Yeah and that's what I'm talking about. PureBasic is not a software that has some registration key where you can give away the key but keep using the software because you've copied the key. PureBasic is tied to a user account. The password and contact email can be changed => the account can be fully given away without keeping any information that would led to account (and thus: product) sharing.

There is a big difference here. We are not talking about a single version of
a product like a Win2k OS here, which you can resell together with its CD etc.

We are talking about the right to lifelong free updates. This is something that
is NOT bound to the CD or package (no packaged version of PB you can buy in a store allows this)
The right to these updates is something we grant to each user and is (as you said)
bound to a personal user account.
I think we are well within our rights (yes, even in germany) to deny you from reselling this account and update right.
(Just read the linked article by milan1612 about the Oracle case. This applies here as well,
as the unlimited updates are also just a download and do not come in a box)

So yes, maybe you can resell the boxed version, but the user account is something you cannot sell.

Rings:

It is true that in german law many things in EULAs are not relevant, but that does not
mean you can ignore it alltogether. The principle i talked about earlier
(that you "own" the CD, but "rent" the right of use) is actually german law,
and the producer can impose restrictions on the use of his software.
It is just that in germany some things that are common in EULA's cannot be enforced.
That does not mean however that the thing as a whole is irrelevant.

That would mean I bought PB illegaly because I bought it second hand. Funny enough that no one complained about the thread in the German forums http://www.purebasic.fr/german/viewtopic.php?t=12588

I will contact PureBaser to give me my money back since he sold me an illegal PB.

freak wrote:
Yes, the box you own and can resell as you wish, but not the right to use the software.

??
I know there is an old boxed version.
do you want to tell me that if i buy it.

or someone DONATE it for me
i can reSell it again and again and again?
resell = you can sell it how many times you wish and even the ones you sold them can get resell rights and even sell it them selfs

can you be more specific and clear about this?

of course not. where did you get that one from !?

resell = sell again ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/resell )

ok.
just wanted to make it clear.

Sebe wrote:This version was the boxed version of PB, which can be sold or donated as one wish because there was no EULA shown when bought.

I also have the boxed version that I picked up on eBay.



But when I saw that licenses purchased online came with free updates and didn't know if that included the boxed version, I ended up never using it because I wanted the free updates so I bought the license I use directly from Fred.

I keep the boxed one because "I feel like it!"

It's funny though, I wanted the free updates but didn't take advantage of it, I paid Fred the $30 difference between the price of 3.x when I bought it and the current price of 4.x...

You could sell the box and the CD in it, but unless Fred gives you permission to sell your online purchased license and user account, the buyer would only have the right to use the version of PureBasic on the CD and if it's anything like the CD I have, it's a very old version. The setup program on my CD is dated May 28th, 2002.

Because in most cases software licence says thet are not transfereable.

And in most cases and in most countries, software licenses are not legally binding nor can they be enforced. From another post I made:

Rook Zimbabwe wrote:And you would have to give me more than $85.00 to take DarkBasic off your hands!

I'll see your $85 and raise you $25. Sebe, I will take DBP off of your hands if you pay me $110.00, but that is my FINAL offer!

Brice Manuel wrote:And in most cases and in most countries, software licenses are not legally binding nor can they be enforced.

Legally binding, maybe not, enforcable, maybe.

If the program requires activation or verification through an online service or through a user account as PureBasic is. If you decide to sell your PureBasic license Fred can enforce it being non-sellable by simply de-activating your user account if do sell it.

Yes, you can change your password and your contact e-mail address but you can't change your login ID or user name which is the e-mail address you used when you bought PureBasic.

Games from Auran or on Valve's Steam can't be resold once you activate them because the serial number gets permanently tied to your account and can't be removed which means the buyer would not be able to activate the program to run it.

DarkBasic Pro also has an online activation system which replaced needing to have the CD in the drive for verification on every 100th compile. It's been so long that I activated my copy of DarkBasic Pro that I don't recall how closely tied to my account it is. I did end up with two copies of DarkBasic Pro and sold one of them, but the one I sold I had never activated so the company had no problem with me selling it and worked with me to make sure the new user could activate it.

Oh sure, all software companies are evil... long live the free software movement!

Oh sure, all software companies are evil...

Nah, just the big ones like MS, Adobe, etc. Pretty much why I only buy software put out by indie developers like you guys

Legally binding, maybe not, enforcable, maybe.

I meant legally enforcable, ie enforced in court. Hell, most of these licenses are only provided post-sale which is illegal in all 50 states here in the USA. Companies try and call the EULAs a "contract", but for a contract to be legally binding, both parties generally have to agree to it before payment is made.

When Adobe is ruled against in Federal court and the ruling states: "software sales are purchases, not licenses, and resale is lawful regardless of a contractual prohibition." that is a major precedent, and just one of many.

Games from Auran or on Valve's Steam can't be resold once you activate them because the serial number gets permanently tied to your account and can't be removed which means the buyer would not be able to activate the program to run it.

I had this discussion a couple of years ago in another community, under international copyright law, gimmicks like Steam are illegal. The DMCA even specifies that you have the right to bypass protection schemes like that if they interfere with your right to make archival copies or other legal rights granted to you under copyright law. Busy this weekend with Mother's Day, but if I get the chance I will go through my archives and post the meat of that thread here, interesting when you see what is really in the DMCA.

Companies get away with illegal activities like this because their wallets are so deep, the average joe could never afford any legal recourse.

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% antipiracy and believe in legitimate protection methods. I only have issues with the methods that violate my legal rights or nonsense licenses that try and circumvent existing laws. Ex. The first thing I did after I bought XP was track down the activation crack. When I bought XP SP2, I had to track down a new activation crack.

Regarding PureBasic, I have a major problem with people selling their license/rights to indie software. I have no problem if the indie software is given/transferred to the new person for free, but charging for it ticks me off due to my strong stance for indie developers.

Personal example. Friend in Oz is poor. He couldn't afford Blitz. I gave him my copies/account of B3D, B+ and B2D. Then a couple of months later, I turned around and bought them all for myself since I no longer had them and missed them. Recently I gave up on BMax and gave my copy/account to somebody else. I could never dream of selling indie software like this.

Brice Manuel wrote:Hell, most of these licenses are only provided post-sale which is illegal in all 50 states here in the USA.

True, time was (before electronic delivery) that licenses or EULA's were put on the back of the box underneath the shrink-wrap so you could read it prior to purchasing. Some companies make their EULA available on their web site so that you have the ability to read it before purchasing. But most only put it in their installer and if they don't offer a trial or you purchase before trying, then you don't see it until after the sale.

Brice Manuel wrote:under international copyright law, gimmicks like Steam are illegal. The DMCA even specifies that you have the right to bypass protection schemes like that if they interfere with your right to make archival copies or other legal rights granted to you under copyright law.

Not quite true. Steam itself has the built-in ability to backup or archive games you purchased.

You can also install Steam on any number of computers and once configured to access your Steam account, you can install and activate games you've purchased on those computers. Steam does also enforce the "book" metaphor such that it will only allow as many copies of the game to run simulaniously as you've purchased so if you bought one license for Half-Life 2, you can install and activate it on several computers, but only one copy at a time will be allowed to run.

Brice Manuel wrote:Regarding PureBasic, I have a major problem with people selling their license/rights to indie software. I have no problem if the indie software is given/transferred to the new person for free, but charging for it ticks me off due to my strong stance for indie developers.

I partially agree with you there and it largely depends on how the developer handles updates and upgrades.

In PureBasic's case I agree since Fred gives you free upgrades "forever". It doesn't help him to gain a customer by second hand sale unless the new customer feels inclined to "donate".

I'm not sure I'd call PowerBASIC an indie developer but they make a perfect example where I'd be OK with reselling a license to their products.

In their case they do charge significantly for upgrades, which I have no plans to purchase, so there's no more money in it for them me. But if I were sell my license, there's now a good chance that the new licensee would buy upgrades so there would be new sales for PowerBASIC.

I don't plan to sell my PowerBASIC licenses, that was just for example...