PureBasic Forums - English

Kaeru Gaman wrote:> We are told of what experiments have taken place and what has been observed. and you are told how it is interpreted and connected with theories.

but we can always conduct the experiments and see for ourselves and read all previous research.

Kaeru Gaman wrote: > Your not allowed to disagree.
this is right for religion and for science.
imagine how many problems young scientists with new ideas get.

Not those with proof. Religion has NO proof whatsoever only hearsay!

Kaeru Gaman wrote: ...but this discussion is ridiculous.

You started it.

> You started it.

in fact, I only stated how funny the way is you speak about sience.
I see no self-criticism in your statements, but a lot of belief.

but as I said, your problem, not mine.

have a nice day.

I believe that what created the world was a devision by zero :roll:

Kaeru Gaman wrote:> You started it.

in fact, I only stated how funny the way is you speak about sience.
I see no self-criticism in your statements, but a lot of belief.

but as I said, your problem, not mine.

have a nice day.

What's funny? And, your right, i don't critisise myself and yes i do believe in myself. Also i have no problem. All religious people have the big problem and they cause all of the worlds big problems.

Religious people:

1. You believe in an invisible, magical creature that is able to fix everyones problems but choses not too.

2. Yes, it's impossible to prove that some sort of God doesn't exist - however any proof that works for monotheism also works for polytheism or any other type of religion. The flying spagetthi monster can be 'proven' to exist with the same 'proofs' used for God. That must bring some doubt into your mind.

3. You can't proove some sort of God doesn't exist - but you can prove the God of classical theism (i.e. the one you all believe in) doesn't. E.g.

i) God is created the world
ii) There is evil in the world, and God knows about it all
iii) Therefore God created evil, had no problem with evil happening and allows it to continue

4. The usual rebuke of this argument is that we as humans have free will - if this is true than either:

i) We actually have free will, and God doesn't know what we will do, how we will do it or when, so therefore isn't omnipotent

OR

ii) We don't actually have free will and God wanted bad things to happen

5. Religious people insist that while the universe had to be created by God God himself can just simply have existed forever. If God can have existed forever without creation than so can the universe - either is equally likely.

6. The Bible is full of contradictions and parts of it can be proven to be utterly false. Now, this is only a problem if you believe the literal word of the Bible (which, unfortantly many people do) but if you DO believe the literal word of the Bible there's no way you can follow everything it says (i.e. if you're a christian Jesus said give away all of your possessions, and you haven't) and therefore you will be punished. So there's no point in following God anyway.

Yeah. I hate religion. I have way more if you want to continue this argument...

Killswitch wrote:The flying spagetthi monster

Aha, another Dawkins reader. *salute*

Do you know the box thesis?
Well I will tell you about it.
First, people think God is almighty, so he should be able to accomplish the task of creating a box of which the content is not known to him, but if he can do that, he isn't omniscient because he doesn#t know the content of the box. This proves that god can't be almighty and omniscient at the same time

PS: I personaly believe in god, however probably not the god most people believe in

First, people think God is almighty, so he should be able to accomplish the task of creating a box of which the content is not known to him, but if he can do that, he isn't omniscient because he doesn#t know the content of the box. This proves that god can't be almighty and omniscient at the same time Razz

Perhaps the human mind is her attempt to create something she cannot know the content of.

There is no religion vs science or vice versa.

Thats not true.

Maybe some people says incorrect things in the name of the religion or in the name of science, but that dosent mean that they are talking in the name of science or religion.

In fact, the sciencie has nothing to say in the "philosophy" area and religion has nothing to say in the science area.

ricardo wrote: In fact, the sciencie has nothing to say in the "philosophy" area and religion has nothing to say in the science area.

That is true but almost all religous people think God can change things and therefore they go into the science area.

In some way's it is true that science is also a faith. I mean how can we know that a electrical field exists if there is no charged object in there?
Or how do we know that we don't live in the Matrix etc?

But one of the big difference between religion and science is that religon was also designed to control people, science is only designed to understand the world.

Saying that you can't disagree in science is BS. Einstein did that and Quanten Physics etc too.

So I guess in the end God might exist but the chances are pretty pretty low.

But talking to people, believing in god, about stuff like that is almost impossible. It's really hard to change beliefs of people are older then 20 years.

So let them believe their BS as long they don't harm other people, or they bring us proof for the existence of God. (That isn't "The Bible says so").

Saying that you can't disagree in science is BS. Einstein did that and Quanten Physics etc too.

so it's also BS for religion, because Luther did and Calvin etc etc

That is true but almost all religous people think God can change things and therefore they go into the science area.

so religious people have to shut up just because you claim every problem to be scientific? that is BS

...and if you quote those rethoric games with "almighty", like the example with the box, or the other one with the stone,
those are only rhetoric tricks upon the term, and no arguing about the nature of it.
btw, those rhetoric games all were introduced by theologists, not by scientists.

if you really want to argue about an almighty entity,
you first must state the theory that it exists, and then try to prove or disprove it.
you must not start with scientific axioms.

if there was any entity that created the spacetime we live in, it would be outside it,
and so it will not be bound to the limits of spacetime, wich means it would not be bound to time,
so it doesn't need to look into the future, because for it it's not future but just a sub-dimension under it's control.

and further, the paradoxon of the duality of determinism and free will is not only a philosophical/religious problem,
but also a very actual problem in quantum physics.

by this I only scratch the surface of everything I learned about science and philosophy/religion the past thirty years.
so you may see, yes, the way you all argue around the core is at least funny,
sometimes boring, and sometimes even annoying.

you constantly dare to offend religious people, and you affect serious scientific people by that aswell,
because the religious ones may think all people who like science are the same.

so do us all a favor and learn enough about science and religion,
before you try to prove the one and disprove the other.

Kaeru Gaman wrote:by this I only scratch the surface of everything I learned about science and philosophy/religion the past thirty years.
so you may see, yes, the way you all argue around the core is at least funny,
sometimes boring, and sometimes even annoying.

Good! Religion deserves no special respect.

I can't understand why anyone would want to study religion for 30 years. What a waste of life and time. Just 5 minutes with the bible (or any holy book) and anyone even remotely intelligent uncovers the nonsence within.

Religion is the root of all evil in this world.

As Steven Weinberg said; "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

Don't misunderstand me, the example with the box was only a thing to get your brains started, e.g. to make people aware of how complex thinking about terms like almightyness or omniscience is.
I personally believbe that if there is a god, it will not be bound to such problems since it's consicenious is above it. It the same as with a thought in our brain or an imagened world, for this world you are like god. So if you can imagine a box of which the content is not known to you while still knowing everything about the imagined world it lives in, god can do this aswell only in a higher level. I don't believe in religion, but I believe that there is a cause and sense in the way the world is. I also don't believe that god if it exists does need to be good in the sense that it helps everybody but that the world we live in is like a thought experiment to god.
The thing that really makes me angry is the type of people who try to opress other people using "religion", and yes in my opinion this includes the catholic church, the muslim church, at least parts of the protestant church and probably 99% of all other churches. I mean, I do think Jesus was a great man but he was only a man just like Buddha, Gandhi, and many more great people, however, I don't think this would lower him in any way, in my opinion being pure human makes him even more impressive, I mean what is hard about immolating yourself if you don't have to fear death, if you have to fear death however it's a big achievement to die for ones friends. In my believe god want's us to develop and research, he wants us to find out about how the world works (at least if I had a thought experiment with creatures in it I would want them to explore their world) I know all this is nothing but my own opinion and it probably isn't right at all but it doesn't contradict with science and doesn't stop me from being interested in the way cells function, quantums work and more.
PS: To every catholic

Konne wrote:

ricardo wrote: In fact, the sciencie has nothing to say in the "philosophy" area and religion has nothing to say in the science area.

That is true but almost all religous people think God can change things and therefore they go into the science area.
.

Yes, but that its not a fault of the religion itself, but that people fault.

The religion, as any philosophy moves in the speculation area, thats their working directory (he he) and just that.
Everybody (even people that dont believ in God) has a "philosophy believes" and that believes cant be discussed using science.

Its like discussing the "meaning of life" (if any)... science has nothing to say about that because its a point of view, a believe and EVERY PEOPLE has his own point of view.

If some people, in the name of religion (or in name of politics or whatever) try to move in the science area, thats a mistale and most probable is that will be only nonsense.

Personally i do believe in God, but i dont thing that this personal and subjetive believe gives me any kind of special 'ilumination' to speak about science.

This could be comparable with the difference betwen science and political topics... are 2 very different things and if any politic try to start talking about science (without being a scientist) he is making a mistake.

BUT same thing applies ion the other way. A science people has no speciall attribut to speak about religion, soccer, politics or girls... in those areas he is just a normal persona with its own personal and subjetive believes and ideas.

I hope my bad english dont make much obscure what i tried to explain

Kale wrote:

Kaeru Gaman wrote:by this I only scratch the surface of everything I learned about science and philosophy/religion the past thirty years.
so you may see, yes, the way you all argue around the core is at least funny,
sometimes boring, and sometimes even annoying.

Good! Religion deserves no special respect.

Its respectable because its important for other people.

We have to respect things that are legal and that somebody found it important for themselves.


This applies not only to religion but to any idea (like politics, etc).

We cant measure the importance of things just because what we personally think about it.