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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:19 pm
by Kaeru Gaman
well, in fact I don't have any p2p-download-manager...

i never download any movies. i love originals.
if the movie is somewhere for official free download, i might download it,
but in fact i rather watch movies on my 29"-TV-screen sitting in my comfortable armchair,
then interpolatet on a 19"-monitor on the less comfortable work-chair... ;)

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:21 pm
by Psychophanta
Well, then i think you can find it out there.

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:13 am
by Joakim Christiansen
What the Bleep Do We Know?!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2522832038
Watch it, it's great!

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:16 am
by jack
I posted this hoping that it would make you think and maybe immerse yourself in study, am saddened about the antisemitic feeling of some.
at Joakim Christiansen, that's great video. :)

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:48 am
by jack
the video is rather long so I have not seen it all but i have a comment about the man that that said you can affect your future but not your past, I think you can, think of time-space as a pool of water, the center of the pool being the present, and let's say the left side is the past and the right side the future, now drop a pebble into the center, the ripples will go to both past and future.

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:31 am
by Kaeru Gaman
> am saddened about the antisemitic feeling of some.

hu? what the heck....

in wich way you dare to call it antisemitic, when we say, this man wants to sell a book?

of course it absolutely correct what is said about limited perception
and the difference between percieved reality and existing reality,
but if someone rather sticks to Plato or Buddha than to the Kaballah,
it's just his "god-given" right, don't you think?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[edit]
@Joakim C
thanks for the link, but this is what i meant:
i don't want to sit 1h48m in front of my monitor, watching a 320x240 video resized to somewhat you can't call resolution.
I will buy the DVD somewhen in 2007. it's 15,- now at amazon,
so i think it will take 3-5 months to let it go down beneath 10,- ;)

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:51 am
by Derek
jack wrote:the video is rather long so I have not seen it all but i have a comment about the man that that said you can affect your future but not your past, I think you can, think of time-space as a pool of water, the center of the pool being the present, and let's say the left side is the past and the right side the future, now drop a pebble into the center, the ripples will go to both past and future.
So you are saying you can affect your past. Interesting. Can you go back and win the lottery. :D

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:53 am
by Kaeru Gaman
if you presume
> the left side is the past and the right side the future
then the movement of the waves cannot be in "time" but outside.
additionally, the waves are not only "effect", because effect is defined to have a direction.
accordint to this, you can interprete the waves to left left as the sum of
all events that leaded to this event you modelled with the dropping.

of course there are cases, where the symptom is before the cause,
but most of them are outside our understanding.

some effect that is travelling back in time has totally different nature than effect travelling forth in time,
so you can't pack them into the same model, just saying, "left is past, right is future"

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:48 pm
by blueznl
Okay. So, I'm tempted to respond. In fact, I would go even as far as dropping my bad habit of dropping capitals and interpunction.

You see, I love philosphy :shock: Seriously! :?

Yes.

Go here if you don't belive me: http://www.xs4all.nl/~bluez/personal/semanti1.htm

When looking at the commercial ;-) I couldn't help but disagree, and smile at a certain point. There's a strange thing in there, which is quite common and very human. He's inconsistent.

The good part is where he explains that everything we perceive is processed, or filtered. Which I do agree with. But, and here he goes 'metaphysical', there's no such thing as a 'direct' 'unfiltered' connection to the world around us. It's ALWAYS filtered.

So yes. We are what we are. Ego's locked up in a box.

So, we are all different, because we all experienced and experience different inputs, which, in turn, forms us. In other words, we are the sum of our experiences. (Ah, existentialism, just when we need it.)

Now, there are some consequences of the above. First of all, what is reality? What is the world around us? We don't know for sure. We just know that the world WE see is what we get through our filtered inputs. If we take this one step further, it means that every 'world perceived' is different. So, there are as many worlds as there are perceivers. (Heh, I neatly stepped around the world 'observer', as that would mean there would be something such as an observer, but as all input is filtered one cannot be objective :-))

Is one perception better than another one? No! Is one more accurate than another one? Again, no. So one could argue that there is not a single all encompassing definite reality. Reality is different to every person. Hmmm. Let me leave this part for now.

Still with me? Okay. Next step. Assume that we are the results of all that input. Now take that one step further. If we respond to outside input, our reactions will differ, depending on our previous experiences. And here comes a trick which I think does make a big difference...

Reactions. Reflexes.

Previous input has conditioned our output, meaning that some actions take place on a subconscious level, automatic. Some of them are for our safety (keep your balance or you topple over, don't put your hand in the fire). Some of them are conditioned (guilt, blame, stick to the right side of the road, or the left :-)).

So, now we got filters that filter the input, and automatic reactions that react to that filtered input, and we use that filtered input to reprogram our filters. Again and again.

Goodie. That's a dangerous thought.

If we allow filtered input to program our filters, we're going to get... euh... double filtered? That's a scary thought, isn't it? We start loosing control.

Goody, I hate that.

But here's step one. It's an easy one. If we are AWARE of our 'filtering' we may be able to affect that filtering. It will always be there (the filter), but we won't blindly accept the 'filtered' reality it as 'the' reality. Perhaps we can adjust our view of the world, our filters, thus adjusting our view of reality, thus, in fact, adjusting reality itself... (Which is personal anyway, remember?)

Now take step two. If we now we 'filter' reality ourselves, we may also take a look at our reactive patterns, our responses. How many of those make sense? Which ones are automatic responses, stuff we conditioned ourselves to do? Can we change them? Should we change them?

This awareness makes a BIG difference. If you're not aware, your behaviour would become automatic. Finely tuned, perfectly adjusted, but still automatic. And you might not be aware...

Back to that little Kabbala commercial... read the above, then watch the video again. Just like me you start to loose track at the part where he goes on to the 'will to bestow' track. He assumes there is one world for all, and that world is definite to all of us. Thus, 'perceive the greater reality' would in his worldview make sense. In HIS worldview...

And that's where I beg to differ. I do NOT think there is a ruleset for all of us, that applies to all our worlds.

Ah. Now does that make sense?

Oh, darn. I forgot to tell you why I think he's inconsistent. Well, he confirms that we are ego's in a box (and that's EGO, NOT EGOISM) that each suffer from different filtering. In other words, each ego experiences a different world. How, if those worlds are different, with different rules, can HIS set of rules be applied to all OUR worlds?

(Added.) The first part (before the first 'the end') is pretty good and makes good sense. What comes after that needs a makeover involving the lead character and some concrete boots :-)

Perhaps I should now rest my case :-)

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:26 pm
by thefool
blueznl wrote: Perhaps I should now rest my case :-)
Please don't! I think you are right.
BUT
Is one perception better than another one? No! Is one more accurate than another one? Again, no. So one could argue that there is not a single all encompassing definite reality. Reality is different to every person. Hmmm. Let me leave this part for now.
Sure some perceptions are better than others. Eg the ones believing in god are, in my opinion, ignorants of facts. Its simple as that! Like our world creation.

Of course i can't tell if its the truth, but its damn more sure than the most other explanations and its even more logical if you got a little brain.

So yes reality is different to persons, but for sane, wise persons (most of you), it has a certain line of comparable things.

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:36 pm
by Kaeru Gaman
Eg the ones believing in god are, in my opinion, ignorants of facts.
why is this the first thing atheists state? do you have nothing else?

in fact, saying "Sure some perceptions are better than others." is the same thing like inquisition,
no matter if you are for or against some "god"-based believe.

there is no possibility to prove anything to be a fact.

is this a matrix or some physical world?

there is no way to decide, because all observations we can take to account are filtered perseptions.

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:19 pm
by Henrik
@Psychophanta
What's the difference between "What the BLEEP Do We Know" and "Kabbalah Revealed"

Or What's the difference between

"how littel we really know/understand"
and a promise about
"If you read this and your are mentaly developed to understand this, you will get god given and ultimate perception on reality"


Listen, Psychophanta all the stuff before "The first The End" is okay and dandy.
It is the stuff Just after "The first The End" that is "snake oli" it's a promise about a way out of the box, promise of how to become divine your self.

If he had read the book him self, he probably wouldn't be selling snake oli would he ?


@jack
What is the difference between "being antisemitic" and saying that " This guy is selling snake oli"



Best
Henrik

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:47 pm
by Derek
Kaeru Gaman wrote:
Eg the ones believing in god are, in my opinion, ignorants of facts.
why is this the first thing atheists state? do you have nothing else?
Atheists look at the facts and interpret them, believers just say that it is because... :twisted:

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:03 pm
by Kale
Kaeru Gaman wrote:
Eg the ones believing in god are, in my opinion, ignorants of facts.
why is this the first thing atheists state?
Because theres nothing more to say and that pretty much sums up religious thinking.

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:18 pm
by thefool
Kale wrote:
Kaeru Gaman wrote:
Eg the ones believing in god are, in my opinion, ignorants of facts.
why is this the first thing atheists state?
Because theres nothing more to say and that pretty much sums up religious thinking.
Exactly!

If you compare some of the religious "ideas" on how the world existed with the current scientific one, its simply nonsense. The whole world seems to be build on things like development of the different species.
Atheists look at the facts and interpret them, believers just say that it is because...
You are right 100% right. Atheism is way more proved and "connected" than religion which is a combination of total nonsense and fiction.

On a side note: writings like the bible do, however, contain lots of good morals and story's. Even though its a bit greased sometimes and even self-attacking (its not very connected)...

in fact, saying "Sure some perceptions are better than others." is the same thing like inquisition,
no matter if you are for or against some "god"-based believe.
I DID NOT say that. But i have a hard time taking such people really serious. I am not the one to judge who are better than others, nor will i do it. But i really do think you should take some biology lessons, and then reconsider believing or not ;)