PureBasic Forums - English

It's very disappointing to see a great project end up going down this rabbit hole. I'll be honest, nothing against you shadowstorm, but my interest disappeared with the news that stargate is out.

netmaestro wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:58 pm I'll be honest, nothing against you shadowstorm, but my interest disappeared with the news that stargate is out.

I'm out? I recently did a post here. It is true that I am not currently working on this project.
But what am I supposed to do?

To my person:
On September 2021 I did the last update and since this date, nothing was requested and no feedback was given (as has been communicated, possibly due to the license).
I'll be honest, I don't actively use the module. Therefore, my motivation is low to add new features myself without knowing that someone needs it. There are some requests from ShadowStorm, like rotating objects or connecting objects with a joint. However, such implementation would need an almost complete new drawing routine and event handling, because it was not planned. The other recently requested feature was from superadnim last month, adding a load and save procedure. A feature which can be easily implemented.

To ShadowStorm person:
I can understand his arguments regarding this license, but I also see the impasse it leads to.
He will "lose" in all cases, either because nobody will use this module or he "receive no acknowledgment". I hope you all know what I mean. However, I do not want to take part in this discussion or decision. It is up to ShadowStorm. This project was and is still his idea, with all its features. I'm "just" the programer for this project (unfortunately the only one). However, this creates for ShadowStorm a dependency on me, which is not good for this project, for him, and for me.

And here we are stuck now...

Thank you for clarifying Stargate.
ShadowStorm is unfortunately well known on the French forum for having about 10 "wonderful" ideas a week, and each of his ideas leads to... nothing (well, almost nothing)
Here one of his ideas involved Stargate. The only point is that, as usual, there's no clear goal to this idea. ShadowStorm never showed a full and useful application of his project.
And that led to a huge amount of time wasted by Stargate to program this module...

netmaestro wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:58 pm It's very disappointing to see a great project end up going down this rabbit hole. I'll be honest, nothing against you shadowstorm, but my interest disappeared with the news that stargate is out.

Thank you netmaestro for your message.
I think you are also a very great programmer, very strong?

Yes, since Stargate is gone, I'm depressed too, it's the only thing right now that gave "meaning to my life", and these are not just words, this project was and is very important to me.

But yes, as Stargate says so well, I am sadly dependent on it.

I managed, a little after it stopped, to make a program and to set up some prototypes, very interesting by the way!

It is a display manager in a canvas.
https://www.purebasic.fr/french/viewtopic.php?t=18615

But our great module is I'm afraid much too difficult to understand and to grasp for me.

In winter I have nothing to do, and the bad weather doesn't help me.
But I'm ready to dive back into it, because I stopped programming a while ago.

Well, some people ask me for an application that shows the possibilities of EditorsFactory, I'll see what I can do, although it is already full of examples, isn't that enough?

I want to specify that I'm going to change the name of this module, I made a mistake on the name, this name makes think to be able to create "editors factories", although it's what I think it can do with some work, so the name doesn't seem to be good and people don't understand what it's for, it seems that despite all my efforts I have a lot of trouble to explain things correctly, which is a problem knowing that I think I'm doing it well.

I think I'll name it "Visual Object Manager" or "Virtual Object Manager", I'm not sure yet, I'll do it later, I think it will sound better that way.

Stargate:

I'm out"? I recently made a post here. Okay, I'm not currently working on this project, but what am I supposed to do?

As for me, no offense, but I'm sad that you don't give me any news and it actually bothers me I don't understand and I feel like I did something you didn't appreciate, that you are angry.

I know you don't have much time for yourself, and you want me to "leave you alone" as they say, but you haven't replied to any of my posts for a long time, so I'm forced to write here what I think about it all, and that's what others blame me for.

Anyway, I hope you're doing well.

Stargate:

In September 2021, I made the last update and since then, nothing has been requested and no feedback has been given (as communicated, maybe because of the License).

Yes, let's talk about this License...

Stargate:

I can understand his arguments about this license, but I also see the dead end it leads to. He will "lose out" either way, because no one will use this module, or because he "will receive no recognition". I hope you all understand what I mean. However, I don't want to be part of that discussion or decision. That is for ShadowStorm to decide.

I think you're right about that, I agree. You shouldn't give "credits" to this "Shadow Storm" monster! (I'm speaking for the people of the French forum mostly), anyway.

As Mindphazer says so well here:

Thanks for clarifying Stargate. ShadowStorm is unfortunately well known on the French forum for having about 10 "wonderful" ideas per week and each of his ideas leads to... nothing (well, almost nothing)

Here, one of his ideas was about Stargate. The only point is that, as usual, there is no clear objective to this idea. ShadowStorm never showed a complete and useful application of his project. And that led to a huge waste of time on Stargate's part to program this module...

Yes, it's true what they say, that I have a lot of ideas but a lot of trouble putting them into practice, although I've done some very good things, if some people don't mind!

"Well, almost nothing", you can see that this sentence means everything here! No matter what I do, I am always criticized, it is never good, it is never useful, etc.

"Almost nothing" is a good reflection of what people think of me, and since I have a lot of communication problems, it doesn't help!

Mindphazer:

And that led to a huge waste of time on Stargate's part to program this module

I strongly disagree with you here, and I doubt Stargate sees it that way either!

I remember when I did this EF module idea, some people didn't give a shit about me, I won't name anyone so as not to cause a problem and I mean some, a few, few in fact, but that didn't stop me from doing it, and now that it's done, bha it still sucks!

I don't deserve any credit for this module in the eyes of people, I know it, it's Stargate who did everything! Well no, he didn't do "everything", he did the biggest part, the most important part, but not "everything" !

It's never good, and I still had the ideas, translated all the texts, made examples in French, a help in French (incomplete) and even demos, but it's not good yet.

And as I refuse the "free" license, just so that people don't make money on our work, and for not having money I don't care, I remind you, it's the principle I can't stand!

And the fact that Stargate is in the project, people only see him and not my contribution, I only had ideas, I didn't do anything, yes it's true, only ideas and some work anyway, and as Stargate says so well here, so humbly, he's the coder, it's all thanks to him and I acknowledge it !

Stargate:

This project was and is his idea, with all its features. I am "just" the programmer of this project (unfortunately the only one). However, this creates for ShadowStorm a dependency on me, which is not good for this project, neither for him, nor for me.

And now we are stuck...

The ideas are good but without a brain to implement them, it's worthless, so I understand that most of the credit is given to Stargate, I'm also very grateful to him, and I have no problem with any of it, it's all thanks to him, I just got the "good ideas"?

ShadowStorm wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:56 am And as I refuse the "free" license, just so that people don't make money on our work, and for not having money I don't care, I remind you, it's the principle I can't stand!

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others.”
- Groucho Marx

ShadowStorm wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:56 am I don't deserve any credit for this module in the eyes of people, I know it, it's Stargate who did everything!

Wrong, we all know you had the original idea.
And you get a lot of credit for getting Stargate started on this project. He didn't know you yet
It's a nice project and I'm sure he had fun developing it. This is the most important.

With an open license or a restrictive one as currently, or even a paying one, I agree

STARGÅTE wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:59 pm He will "lose" in all cases, either because nobody will use this module or he "receive no acknowledgment". I hope you all know what I mean.

It's up to you Shadow, to open the project and see what happens.
And just take it that way

Joubarbe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:07 am So what do you get from developing libraries for people for free, you might ask? Well, the satisfaction of helping people in their projects, and making them happy by providing useful tools. Yeah, just that.

ShadowStorm - Why are you still are writing more forum text than Purebasic code?

.
Note: it becomes complicated for me this subject to write, it asks me time to put in form certain text, especially with the quotations which I must replace, and as I am not English, the translations are perhaps not terrible, I translate my texts with: https://www.deepl.com/

ChrisR wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:53 pm

ShadowStorm wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:56 am I don't deserve any credit for this module in the eyes of people, I know it, it's Stargate who did everything!

Wrong, we all know you had the original idea.
And you get a lot of credit for getting Stargate started on this project. He didn't know you yet
It's a nice project and I'm sure he had fun developing it. This is the most important.

As I said before, an idea is worthless if there is no one to put it into practice!
Otherwise, yes, you are probably right on this point.

Yes I think Stargate must have liked this project a lot, he did it because he found
the idea original and interesting, that's the crucial point.

But without him, there would never have been anything, that's the problem with some
of my ideas, sometimes very good, but unable to put them into practice!

ChrisR wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:53 pm

STARGÅTE wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:59 pm He will "lose" in all cases, either because nobody will use this module or he "receive no acknowledgment". I hope you all know what I mean.

With an open license or a restrictive one as currently, or even a paying one, I agree

ChrisR wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:53 pm It's up to you Shadow, to open the project and see what happens.
And just take it that way

Joubarbe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:07 am So what do you get from developing libraries for people for free, you might ask? Well, the satisfaction of helping people in their projects, and making them happy by providing useful tools. Yeah, just that.

Anyway, this project also depends on you, if there is no request from you, then I think that Stargate will do nothing, it is also thanks to you that this module can evolve.

As Stargate said, this module is unfinished, although already very evolved, I wanted to implement the rotation of objects, crucial point for me, but also other things, like for example, to be able to save and load the characteristics of the objects, "as indicated above that Stargate may implement", I also wanted to be able to link objects with "lines", but also to be able to undo and restore the changes made with the objects, and other things still...

And as there is no one to take over, these things may never happen for some of them because it would have to rewrite the code, something that Stargate does not want to do because it is necessary to rethink and rewrite everything, it is a tedious job and I understand it well and do not blame him obviously

skywalk wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:02 pm ShadowStorm - Why are you still are writing more forum text than Purebasic code?

I haven't coded for a while now, no longer feel like it, but you are right, I am sorry!

I don't really understand the relationship between Shadowstorm & STARGÅTE.
Since when do we have project managers and programmers here in the pureboard?
I always thought we are a bunch of damn stupid (goat loving) coders here?
And if I got it right, the base idea to that whole project came from STARGÅTE himself, isn't it?
Here => https://www.purebasic.fr/german/viewtopic.php?t=29423 (maybe there is an english thread also, sorry, didn't look for it)
So, Shadowstorm was leveling-up that idea and let STARGÅTE code it for him (for free?) to... what exactly? Earn some money?
Just my 2ct, I wouldn't use it anyway, I love code directly from coders for coders.

HeX0R wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:17 am I don't really understand the relationship between Shadowstorm & STARGÅTE.

Our relationship is PureLove, PureBasicLove more exactly ^^

What else do you want me to say? I am the nabo (little person), he is the master, does that make sense to you?

If not, I don't know, an asker relationship and he is the coder?
Take it as you like!

I'm having trouble understanding your answer, but it's clearer afterwards.

HeX0R wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:17 am Since when do we have project managers and programmers here in the pureboard?

Is that a crime?
Ah, it's every man for himself, right?
What's wrong with that ?

HeX0R wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:17 am I always thought we are a bunch of damn stupid (goat loving) coders here?

I didn't understand anything here, stupid programmers?
And what does this have to do with goats?
I'm stupid and a goat so that's it ? ^^'

HeX0R wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:17 am And if I got it right, the base idea to that whole project came from STARGÅTE himself, isn't it?
Here => https://www.purebasic.fr/german/viewtopic.php?t=29423 (maybe there is an english thread also, sorry, didn't look for it)
So, Shadowstorm was leveling-up that idea and let STARGÅTE code it for him (for free?) to... what exactly? Earn some money?

Bingo my friend, you hit the bull's eye, the starting idea of my project comes from him and yes you are right because he gave me the idea (well not quite, actually, see below), but before my project, I had asked him for more functionality and performance of his code, but yes, all come from there!

After, came my project, I told him that instead of manipulating gadgets, it would be better to do all that in a canvas with graphics, so that it is more powerful

From there was born our PureAmity ^^

If you want more info, there's a chapter about that in the help of the module I made where I explain all that, it's not a secret you see !

And no, not to earn money because in reality, I already had this project in mind, but only vaguely and without anything written, but I took advantage of that to ask him if my project interested him, (in fact after having asked him to improve his code), I wanted to do a kind of thing like that but as I did not have the capacity nor anybody, I did not launch this project, impossible at the time, you understand? So in reality, my project idea didn't really come from him, but it served as a springboard, you know, I had an opportunity here to do what I had always dreamed of doing without the power, you know?

at the time I would have liked to make a window editor because I didn't really like any of them, but it was impossible for me

I don't even know how to move or resize several objects at the same time, but with this module, all that is made very easy, this project was intended to greatly facilitate the creation of editors, for example window editor, game level editor etc.

That's why I named it "EditorsFactory", to say that it was an editor factory!

here in this module you can create as many objects as you want and do whatever you want with them, within the possibilities of the program, like move, resize, customize the appearance, and tons more!

HeX0R wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:17 am Just my 2ct, I wouldn't use it anyway, I love code directly from coders for coders.

That is to say ?, it's already code, there !
Did you test before spitting in the soup at least ?

I confess to being confused as to which of stargate and shadowstorm is the one who wants to get paid. I don't want to express an opinion and then turn out to be wrong as to which it is.

@HeXOR and @netmaestro:

I commented on this two years ago (Project Editors Factory...):

STARGÅTE wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:41 pm Dear all,

just a few words from my side about this project.
Based on an older code published by me for transforming gadgets, ShadowStorm asked me to further develop an editor for handling and transforming gadget (or in general objects) on a canvas gadget. Since I find such an editor useful for my own projects, I offered him to write the core code for event and drawing management.
Because I already have a lot of experience with such codes (event, transforming and drawing management) "my" code itself is not extraordinary (just time consuming^^), therefore an open souce licence (for this part of code) would be fine for me. But I can also understand ShadowStorm, that he want "more" out of this project, because it's his idea.

That means, I have no aim to make money with the project, nor I was/am being paid by ShadowStorm!

I don't wish to offend anyone but the idea itself has kicked around on the english board for a very long time, even before the advent of the CanvasGadget took most of the heavy lifting out of it. Imho the idea itself has little to no value as many have come up with it before. If someone comes up with the basic concept and then pays someone else to do the coding of which he is incapable, then the idea man should have a major say in what happens with the project. But that didn't happen here. STARGÅTE coded the entire project sans indemnité and, not wishing to profit from it, kindly shared the code in the T&T forum. Let me take this opportunity to say a heartfelt thanks for that and also to express the opinion that no one but STARGÅTE should have a say in what happens to it. What STARGÅTE wanted has defacto happened and so I for one am happy with the outcome.

netmaestro wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:49 am Imho the idea itself has little to no value as many have come up with it before.

I agree.
It's an idea already implemented in other languages too, so certainly not a "Eureka!" moment.

EaselJS
PixiJS
Tkinter