Some thoughts about PB in its current state

[Justin]

I agree with luis review interesting read. In the module part i would add the ability to share private stuff between modules so you can extend them building one on top of another.

To resume it i would say PB is so limited in some aspects that its just for the hobbyist, some basic things that come to mind with the gadget lib:
You can not insert or remove a menu item, you have to rebuild the whole menu
You can not check if a gadget is disabled or hidden, you have to use a flag etc
You can not enumerate the child gadgets of a container if you want to reposition them

All of these things have they corresponding os api, it is just a wrapper but we are in 2017 and we don't have it.
Asking for an unsigned long at these point is useless i guess, not to mention a simple class object, just a structure with procedures inside
The linux bug section is scaring btw and if no more bugs appear is because noone uses it.
And many other things like the limited almost useless http lib, can' the libcurl be wrapped?

So for all these basic lacks I have seen always PB as hobby language with great potential, but it has been fun i stiil use it.
So thank you fred i hope you keep improving it

[normeus]

Here are my thoughts. What are yours?

I think Fred needs to add a monthly "opt in" service on top of the purchase price.
This extra money would allow him to hire at least a part time person ( if it goes well, a team! )

image 2000 people paying a fee of $1 per month, $5 per month or even $10 per month ( their choice )

I really like this site:
https://www.patreon.com/

and here is a sample of a "Creator" getting some decent money:
https://www.patreon.com/mr4thdimention

Again, Fred can only do so much but, if he had money to pay extra programmers then the language would be in a better position.
I don't think many people donate using the hidden PayPal button. ( I sometimes do when I download a new version )

Norm.

[deseven]

I'll try to make it clear - i'm not complaining about me dropping PB and i'm not here for you to persuade me to return. That's not the case! I'm just trying to point out some serious problems.
If you left your city of birth it doesn't mean you do not care about it anymore. It's that simple.

I think the forums are fine...

There were another post by Dude which were deleted. In that post he also said that PB community is totally ok and i'm just another alarmist. He even mentioned this topic as if it proves something.

Well, we're not some peasants with pitchforks, we can at least try to find some facts instead of laughing at another people and their concerns.
Obviously this forum is the heart of PB community and the number of posts is a clear way to measure its activity level. Unfortunately phpbb doesn't provide such statistics grouped by year and search functionality here is kinda limited. I also tried to use google cache, but turned out it's a mess.
So i wrote a pretty simple parser which counts number of messages per year. I didn't make it multithreaded to limit possible resource usage spikes on the server with PB forums so it took some time to get all the needed data, but i succeeded.

I selected all forums under "PureBasic" and "OS Specific" sections and it gave me a total of 42217 topics with 309860 individual posts.
Here is the raw data i got with my script.

Take a look at this graph by years:


There is a clear negative trend, but i thought that maybe it's not too relevant since 2017 isn't over yet (still, it seems like this year will hang somewhere between 2002 and 2003).

So i did a graph by months:


The trend is still here.

It looks even clearer if you skip the period of growth and take just the last 12 years:


Summary:
Is community declining? Yes it is.
Is it inevitable? Probably not.

P.S. I also did some sort of "posts about bugs per year" graph based on posts from "Bug Reports" section, but i'm sure that some old topics were deleted so don't take it serious.

[deseven]

I see that most people are agree with at least two things:
1. PB state on Linux/MacOS is far from ideal.
2. There should be additional financing for Fred.

I personally think that maybe patreon is exactly what can safe PB from dying, thank you normeus for reminding me about it.

I'm really glad that i managed to create at least some sort of discussion here and i hope Fred will see it and make some conclusions.

[vwidmer]

I started using PB for pretty much one reason its its pricing fit my budget. I at one time had licensed xojo but at the time I was able to get the company I was working for to buy it for me.

I don't make software to sell I make software that I need and post as donationware. I like software that I don't have to pay for monthly, yearly or on subscription which is the reason I haven't really bothered with SpiderBasic.

It is also understandable that a developer that is doing updates and introducing new features needs a way to be paid. I know from experience since all of the 6 apps as donationware that I released that total something over 20000 downloads I have received less then $100 in donation in over 5 yrs. That donations don't always pay the bill either.

I don't follow the news or forums that much other then when I am looking for help or see if there is something I can even try to help some one with in my limited ability.

I think there are some parts of PB like the curl lib that are very annoying and or limited in there function right now and I dont think that is important because it is something that other developers like our self's can actually fix or use other libraries for like Chilkat. However I think there are some parts of the software we cant make work like maybe the webgadget which I think is very outdated or not working on pretty much all platforms perfectly so I think maybe should either make a way that users can develop these and share them open-source them what ever OR PB developer should focus on fixing these issues or maybe on more of a core system with open-sourced extras.

But the price is right at € 79 and I don't think you will find very much other software that can come close in that price range for what PB offers.

[Tenaja]

Take a look at this graph by years:

That big decline started around '07.
Hmmm...what happened in '07? (rhetorical/sarcastic...)

[kenmo]

the number of posts is a clear way to measure its activity level.

Disagree It's 2017, people spend less time on any phpBB boards. Focus on PureBasic the product, not post counts on its forum.

Look at SDL, it's used by tons of people and in professional projects, but its forum currently has ~10 topics per week.

[deseven]

Disagree It's 2017, people spend less time on any phpBB boards. Focus on PureBasic the product, not post counts on its forum.
Look at SDL, it's used by tons of people and in professional projects, but its forum currently has ~10 topics per week.

Yeah, they spend less time on forums and more time on stackoverflow, twitter and gitter. There are also many old and slowly dying stuff such as IRC and mailing lists.
SDL have almost all of that, while PB have a very closed community which resides only at that forum and nowhere else. Besides, SDL is just one library and PB is far more complex so i can't compare them in any way.

what happened in '07?

Start of the second browser war, development of Chrome and reborn of the JS?

[walbus]

Make a look for this old language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFA_BASIC

This was the PC gold digger's time

Unfortunately not all gold have been found

It was a come and go, this all was more as sadly

[Dude]

Is community declining? Yes it is.

Actually, your graphs only show that the number of posts have declined. That doesn't mean the community itself is declining. Let's look at some alternative stats: there's 114 new members here from January 2017 to July 2017. In 2016, that same period had 110 new members. In 2015, that figure was only 81 new members. So in a 3-year period, for the same period of the first 7 months of each year (since this year isn't over), the community has actually been growing.

So if I were to explain the declining posts, I'd personally say that I don't post anywhere as much as I used to, but still lurk here daily instead. This is simply because PureBasic has matured enough now to not need my constant "how do I do this" or "how can I fix that" posts anymore. That's what used to be posted from most users from the year 2000 onwards, when the product was young, in the high points of your graphs above. Nowadays, there's not so much to post about except bug reports. That's a good sign, IMO.

Side-topic: some people have lamented that the "great" posters have left, such as Gnozal, Sparkie, and Danilo. I see the opposite: Danilo came back, and we have some fantastic people offering their help, such as Rashad, JHPJHP, and netmaestro.

And yes, I did post this link, because it is relevant: http://www.purebasic.fr/english/viewtop ... =7&t=45773

People have been saying PureBasic is "dying" since 2003. This thread is just another example of it.

[deseven]

Actually, your graphs only show that the number of posts have declined. That doesn't mean the community itself is declining. Let's look at some alternative stats: there's 114 new members here from January 2017 to July 2017. In 2016, that same period had 110 new members. In 2015, that figure was only 81 new members. So in a 3-year period, for the same period of the first 7 months of each year (since this year isn't over), the community has actually been growing.

You can't see the trend by processing only about 5% of total data.
Here, let me help you:


raw data

Average registrations per month dropped from 40 to 20. Actually it beautifully correlates with the drop in the number of posts.

[deeproot]

I felt that I should throw in a few of my own comments on this thread. Of course I totally respect the differing views of other people! My personal opinions only and based on my fairly "narrow" use of PureBasic - - -

Commercial / hobby / prototyping programs? - I use PureBasic for my commercial program and also some small freeware as well as personal programs. It does everything I need, does it fast and allows simple installation. I now use PureBasic exclusively, apart from for Android.

X86? No idea what the numbers are but x86 support is still essential. Maybe it's due to my rather niche user base, but there are plenty of 32-bit systems still around. In fact many of my users appear to have quite old machines, even obsolete OS!

Cross platform? My customers are mainly Windows plus a good many on MacOSX. Starting with a big Windows program converted from VB6, the port to a Mac equivalent only took some small and mostly easy code changes plus a few custom bits. It works just fine and the UI looks nice! Only dabbled with Linux so far, so can't really comment yet!

Reliability / bugs / features? Once through the testing phase (PureBasic product and written code) it's absolutely reliable. Yes, PureBasic is not perfect but I've never seen a language that is! Sometimes workarounds are needed and design considerations made. Maybe it's not suitable for every purpose but PureBasic can do an awful lot! One thing very important to me is that code written for PureBasic version 3-something still works for 5.60 with only minor changes.

LTS versions? A valuable strategy that shows a professional understanding. I've recently moved to 5.60 but often don't have the time to check out the latest versions. So I mostly use the LTS release.

Open Source PB? Open Source can be a very good thing but is not always the right way! PureBasic is Fred's child, a bit quirky and certainly unique. I hope it stays that way and I agree with IdeasVacuum. It's an amazing product that can only have resulted from individual vision. Fred and helpers (never forgetting Freak et al.) have made something special that could be lost if open-sourced!

Community forum? Variable but still reasonably active. I don't see any big problem with this. Personally I rarely post anything but read the forum almost every day. My questions are most often answered by doing a Search. I suspect many other people are the same. If I'm having a bad day then I just look up some of KCC's old posts and it makes me feel better

[Fangbeast]

If I'm having a bad day then I just look up some of KCC's old posts and it makes me feel better

Not so loud!! If he reads this, he will bring out an eye searing image. usually one consisting of the 'Hoff' in his speedos....

*Shudder* (I may never sleep again)

[deeproot]

he will bring out an eye searing image. usually one consisting of the 'Hoff' in his speedos....

[blueb]

I bought my first IBM PC in 1981, to help run my new business, so I'm as old as dirt and have seen many things come and go!

I bought into PureBasic in 2003 and haven't looked back.

Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I concentrated on what PB 'could do'.

I applied PureBasic's talents according to what I needed, I created various programs to help with accounting, invoicing, scheduling and overall office/plant efficiency.

Made a few million with the business, so I'd say that I'm happy with the results.

PureBasic is a part of that success, so I appreciate it the things that it can do. Of course, the community here is second to none.