Dr Janda Speaks out on Obama Health Care

[Marlin]

...
It must be realized that liberty is also held hostage when there is only one choice possible. I think of an example from a fictional ruler in a movie that decreed "Be happy or else suffer death!".

This "Be happy or else suffer death" looks much like a natural law to me.

Unhappiness might kill you in the long run anyways,
or you might kill yourself in such a situation,
if you do not see any other hope of betterment possible in the future.

The key thing about that, is that real happiness is required,
no just some fake version of it, where you keep standing in your way
of doing the right things required to actually achieve it.

I'm also thinking, that the fear of death (justified or not) might get
in your way when when it comes to doing the right thing.

Fear can even reduce the function of human immune systems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvW3EoMdm8g (see about 5 min. into the video)
I'll post the links to the other parts of this video for easier access,
if someone is interested.

"Useless laws weaken necessary laws" - Charles de Montesquieu

I couldn't help to be impressed by this statement.

I'm just having a kind of a gut feeling, that maybe the need for laws,
is not an entirely natural thing at all.

[utopiomania]

I live in a socialist hell country, and I'm so happy about it..

Healt care is free, Education is free, I am free to start a business and get filtyh rich
whenever I please.. or just get whatever job that suits me right now.

Our socialist hell oil money is tucked away here.

Its the third largest pile of money in the world, and growing. Thats cool.

[skywalk]

LOL...let me know when the line starts to collect on that pile of cash?

In America, Ponzi schemes abound, and none more altruistic than Social Security.

They are great and wonderful until you run out of other people's money.

Like, when there are more retirees than worker bees.

[Marlin]

@utopiomania:
The feeling you are conveying makes me want to come to Norway too.

Actually, I don't recall any negative news about Norway at all.
On the other hand, I know little about that country yet.

Wikipedia tells me, the type of government of the Kingdom of Norway is a
"Unitary parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy".

Wikipedia also tells me things like:
- Gross external debt: $548.1 billion (30 June 2009),
- Public debt: 60.2% of GDP (2009 est.)

This means to me, even if adjectives like "sovereign" might be connected
in peoples minds, when they think of Norway,
this country seems to be no exceptions when it comes to
being "owned" by other people.

So I'm reconsidering my immigration plans.
The climate was probably to cold for me anyways;
maybe I should rather join the Kingdom of Hawaii ...
but then again, I do not like to be ruled by other people,
like Kings are generally considered to do.

Its the third largest pile of money in the world, and growing. Thats cool.

Money is known to grow exponentially and without limit,
like no other commodity on a finite planet can.
But Fiat money aka debt money or "money created out of nothing"
does not have an inherent value.
Or I should rather say, it's value depends on the amount of available goods, you can get for it.

More money means less value per unit of money.

If you had a pile of gold or silver money, containing it's "metal value",
this still would not be much of a useful commodity.

It's not known to be edible or to become any useful gadget out of itself,
except, you could put it on a piece of paper so that it would not be blown
away be the wind.

Freedom, peace, independence, available resources, happiness, technical and spiritual development, ...
such are the things, I do consider valuable
(with or without money).

(Strangely, I did not mention health above,
but maybe,
health is something that turns up anyways,
when the factors suppressing it
are gone.)

Another idea:
- There are also limits of how much resources are of use/value
to a single individual at a given time f.e. (colloquially speaking):

• You can only drink so much milk until you burst
• you can only drive one car at a time
• ...

Your happiness may very well increase,
with the happiness of others around you.

[djes]

Interesting to read. The misc points of view depends on priorities upon such values like liberty, property, well being, equity... What is the most important for you?

As you may have already guessed, I think liberty is the most important. The reason I think this is because without liberty the other things do not matter.

For instance, without liberty what good would it be to have property but not be able to use it? To have well being but not be able to choose what you do? To have equity of health care but not be able to choose when you obtain in or from whom you obtain it? To have equity of employment but not be able to choose where you work or when?

Once there is a foundation of liberty other worthwhile things can be added and can likewise be taken advantage of.


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

So you could go anywhere and plant a salad ?

[Demivec]

So you could go anywhere and plant a salad ?

I'm not sure what you mean ... if you are meaning a joke please elaborate.

[djes]

Could you go anywhere and start a plantation? Nope, you can't, because property (you can't start to work on a private property even it is not used) or equality (public goods, like parks) are most valuated than liberty. Your liberty has limits, so you're not so free and if you're agree with these principles, liberty is not at the top of your list of priorities.

[Demivec]

Could you go anywhere and start a plantation? Nope, you can't, because property (you can't start to work on a private property even it is not used) or equality (public goods, like parks) are most valuated than liberty. Your liberty has limits, so you're not so free and if you're agree with these principles, liberty is not at the top of your list of priorities.

Thank you for your explanation.

I agree that liberty often has limits. A common example is that my freedom to move my fist ends at the beginning of your nose. To put it another way, the exercise of one's liberty should not infringe nor limit another's exercise of their liberty. When this happens there often exists the liberty to negotiate an agreement between the two parties.

It should be noted that your examples that involve a lack of property ignore one primary sense of ownership, oneself. This means I can bargain my labor or my time or my talents to procure property that I can then use for my own purposes. This is a common lot of almost all people in a capitalist society, they start out with little and acquire more assets/property as they get older. If the liberty to negotiate and enter into contracts exists then I can form a cooperative with others of like minded individuals to obtain things which I could not do by myself.

That will still leave liberty at the top of my list.

[djes]

This particular liberty is the liberty to buy and sell, your labor, your talents, your strength, your ideas. Is it really a liberty, if you have to do it to live? Of course not, it's just a quest : to not have to work to live. De facto, you're not so free if you have to work.

[skywalk]

Whoa djes!

Of course you are free to whither away and die from inactivity, but survival instincts will kick in and limit your absolute freedom.

This is an example of a specious argument.

Remember, as mortal beings we must adhere to some basic rules of life to prosper and flourish.

Take those out of the discussion, and you can continue to argue your real limits of freedom.

[skywalk]

The freedom I find to be superlative is the unfettered ability to create stuff without fear of retribution or persecution.

Create a design, a song, a process, a speech, a story, a sculpture, a game, etc.

Imagine the trajectory for man in a world focused on creation instead of consumption.

[Demivec]

This particular liberty is the liberty to buy and sell, your labor, your talents, your strength, your ideas. Is it really a liberty, if you have to do it to live? Of course not, it's just a quest : to not have to work to live. De facto, you're not so free if you have to work.

The false part of the argument is the 'have to work' part. Your simple liberty is either to work and live or not to work and die. You also may be fortunate and have parents that will carry you throughout your entire life.

The law of 'Cause and Effect' is not suspended just because you have liberty. Liberty is not merely to desire something, that is a universal freedom, it is also the possibility of achieving it.

[djes]

Your simple liberty is either to work and live or not to work and die.

Remember, as mortal beings we must adhere to some basic rules of life to prosper and flourish.

Death could not be considerated as a possibility, we have to stop somewhere, and life/death is an absolute. We have to live to discuss!

Liberty is not merely to desire something, that is a universal freedom, it is also the possibility of achieving it

The freedom I find to be superlative is the unfettered ability to create stuff without fear of retribution or persecution.

Exactly, it's what is making us coming on the field of other values, that can't be separated from liberty. The mere thing is coming from the start of our life. Did the liberty was the first thing we asked for?