I want to learn a Basic dialect (the whole picture)

[vanbeck]

Demo's are a tricky argument - I mean the PureBasic demo lets you do lots, is very straightforward, and I'd say it is a well executed demo package. But still I only glanced over it when I first tried it - maybe 3 years before I actually started using the thing. I got PureBasic at work because it's a good, speedy language for developing windows applications in, I'd actually forgotten about trying the demo, years before. Languages are like holograms, you have to look at them from the correct angle. Looking at PB when bored one afternoon, never gonna make me buy it - But having an actual need for a language like PB, well I never needed the demo. It was actually just a passing comment by someone who's opinion I respect in these matters, someone said ''PB is like VB without the VD''. So I tried it all over again with a project in mind, and got stuck in.

Trying demo's is fine as long as you don't have to use the language, as long as you have options. A silly joke carried more weight than the demo in my eyes - I might mess around with the demo for 6 months and not scratch the surface, but if I know the surface is worth scratching, then I'm happy. For anyone trying a new dialect or language, you have to look at it from your own perspective - have a little application that is not too complex, to develop in whatever your looking at. You won't find all the intricacies for years but at least you can tackle it how you want, and confidence in your chosen language is the most important thing.

Too many coders procrastinate over language choice, and end up doing very little in the long run - You have it easy if you've decided on BASIC, because you can literally put your own needs together, and there will be a dialect that suits you. Knowing what you do actually want is a bonus, I mean do you want to write games, web applications, bespoke business software, sub-applications... personally I'd say PB is a great option for people who've used Pascal. People often disagree with this - but PB reminds me so much of older Dos versions of Pascal, the way it has to be laid out, and call subroutines. Might just be me, but coming from a standard BASIC background, PB works a bit differently - once you get used to it, it actually makes good sense and will even improve your coding technique in the long run. Some dialects of BASIC let you away with murder.

[Foz]

That is true. But if you can't even get a demo running, what impression does that leave?

In a demo, I'm looking for ease of installation and what I need to do to get a simple app (a hello world esque app) up and running.

[garretthylltun]

I can understand your desire to warn others. Mr. Zale's reputation has preceded him for many years now. I'm shocked he's still in business myself.

Most other products mentioned do not treat customers like that at all. Some like PureBasic here are extremely tolerant.

[Mike Trader]

If the use of you FULL REAL NAME (as demanded by the owner of powerbasic) was in fact the issue, then that would be one thing. In fact this is not the real issue as Mr Zale gave me permission to use my handle in person on the phone when I bought more product a few years ago.

The real issue is the deletion of threads and banning of well meaning customers that either ask inconvenient questions (like why does powerbasic use the FPU for a DWORD integer variable?) or just inadvertently trigger the frequent rage filled tirades of the owner.

Many of us relied spent years developing with this product only to be cut off from any real support (the other users of the forum). The powerbasic staff (of which there appears to actually be one person despite many pseudonyms under which the owner parades online) offer little to no real support.

Now I may be crazy, but I find it hard to believe that anyone considering adopting a development language would not find these relevant issues! I ONLY bought the product because of the forum community, which at that time was superb. Today, anyone and everyone up to and including seasoned developers that have contributed large amounts of source code are finding themselves suddenly banned. So many very talented developers have left that this is not as much of a loss at it once was, but for a new developer, thats crucial.

[blueznl]

Pro PureBasic rants almost always end up as con-other-dialects. Neither thing does help PureBasic, IMHO.

[ConsoleMan]

While I can understand the folks here that have already decided on PureBasic over other possible basic choices not wanting to hear it... having comments/opinions expressed like Mike's here (and any rebuttals too) in the Off Topic forum seems good for newbies trying to decide. They will never hear a real disparaging word on the PowerBasic forum as it will be quickly deleted. The product itself is only part of what one should look for. Official and unofficial support (like from other users here in the forums) should be taken in to consideration.

[Demivec]

While I can understand the folks here that have already decided on PureBasic over other possible basic choices not wanting to hear it... having comments/opinions expressed like Mike's here (and any rebuttals too) in the Off Topic forum seems good for newbies trying to decide. They will never hear a real disparaging word on the PowerBasic forum as it will be quickly deleted. The product itself is only part of what one should look for. Official and unofficial support (like from other users here in the forums) should be taken in to consideration.

@ConsoleMan: The idea is not that individuals are so pro-PureBasic on a PureBasic forum (i.e. duh ). Instead it is that nothing is really being contributed by being so negative about a different another language (i.e. any other language), neither to the particular language involved or to PureBasic.

Off-Topic is definitely the forum for topics not dealing with PureBasic, but I don't think it should be a dumping ground for angry users from all the other programming language forums. As was brought out, PowerBasic forums (or any other forum) won't change because of any complaints posted here. If individuals are intent on creating a change within another forum there are other ways that are more effective in doing so. For instance, if a developer doesn't read what's posted in his own forum why would he read it if it's posted elsewhere? If someone is interested in voicing such dis-satisfactions they can start there own blog and herd people over to it through email and other more personal contacts.

Users have expressed their appreciation for the official and unofficial support that is shown by the PureBasic developers, the forums here, and the users of the language. This is true without regard to how well or bad the situation is regarding another product.

[ConsoleMan]

@ConsoleMan: The idea is not that individuals are so pro-PureBasic on a PureBasic forum (i.e. duh ). Instead it is that nothing is really being contributed by being so negative about a different another language (i.e. any other language), neither to the particular language involved or to PureBasic.

Off-Topic is definitely the forum for topics not dealing with PureBasic, but I don't think it should be a dumping ground for angry users from all the other programming language forums. As was brought out, PowerBasic forums (or any other forum) won't change because of any complaints posted here. If individuals are intent on creating a change within another forum there are other ways that are more effective in doing so. For instance, if a developer doesn't read what's posted in his own forum why would he read it if it's posted elsewhere? If someone is interested in voicing such dis-satisfactions they can start there own blog and herd people over to it through email and other more personal contacts.

Users have expressed their appreciation for the official and unofficial support that is shown by the PureBasic developers, the forums here, and the users of the language. This is true without regard to how well or bad the situation is regarding another product.

@Demivec,

You must have reading comprehension problem... No one said anything about changing another forum or another product. Please learn to read before posting a reply.

[Demivec]

@Demivec,

You must have reading comprehension problem... No one said anything about changing another forum or another product. Please learn to read before posting a reply.

@ConsoleMan: Nice to hear from you. I have been working on my reading comprehension for a while and appreciate your kind encouragement. I found a tool to help you see the connections between my reading and my writing. It can be hard to follow at times without a great deal of effort.

While I would like to contribute to this thread on Mr Roca's forum, he elected to buckle under pressure from Mr Zale and ban me from his forum the day after I was banned from the powerbasic forum. A coincidence? I think not.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang ... f0614d38bf#

While everyone knows what is going over at the powerbasic bunker, no one is willing to stand up and address it directly because it does tend you make you unpopular. While being unpopular is not pleasant, it is NOTHING by comparison to the frustration and rage you will feel after spending 10 years making friends, contributing code and relying upon the help of fellow developers when you find yourself suddenly banned for in-adveretantly offending the owners sensibilities.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang ... 9475040f62#

While I can understand the folks here that have already decided on PureBasic over other possible basic choices not wanting to hear it... having comments/opinions expressed like Mike's here (and any rebuttals too) in the Off Topic forum seems good for newbies trying to decide. They will never hear a real disparaging word on the PowerBasic forum as it will be quickly deleted. The product itself is only part of what one should look for. Official and unofficial support (like from other users here in the forums) should be taken in to consideration.

Off-Topic is definitely the forum for topics not dealing with PureBasic, but I don't think it should be a dumping ground for angry users from all the other programming language forums. As was brought out, PowerBasic forums (or any other forum) won't change because of any complaints posted here. If individuals are intent on creating a change within another forum there are other ways that are more effective in doing so. For instance, if a developer doesn't read what's posted in his own forum why would he read it if it's posted elsewhere? If someone is interested in voicing such dis-satisfactions they can start there own blog and herd people over to it through email and other more personal contacts.

A newbie trying to decide on the worthy qualities of a programming language won't find much to help them decide with what's been presented. They only know how bad some other forum is. The 'whole picture' about which this thread was started never appeared, just complaints. Nothing was mentioned about what makes any kind of support good. It was only mentioned how bad it was somewhere else.

I think it has been mentioned many times in different ways on this forum about the good features of support that are offered here. I would mention a few things but I have run out of time at the moment.


Good day.

[ConsoleMan]

Please highlight text that actually makes sense. Here is the point of my post highlighted for you:

While I can understand the folks here that have already decided on PureBasic over other possible basic choices not wanting to hear it... having comments/opinions expressed like Mike's here (and any rebuttals too) in the Off Topic forum seems good for newbies trying to decide. They [i.e. the newbie trying to decide from the previous sentence for those with reading comprehension problems] will never hear a real disparaging word on the PowerBasic forum as it will be quickly deleted. The product itself is only part of what one should look for. Official and unofficial support (like from other users here in the forums) should be taken in to consideration.

Ironically you guys being so hostile to Mike for posting here (now in the Off Topic where it should be) are directly opposite of the idea of a helpful open forum that helped sell me on PureBasic. And my point was not that posting here would change PowerBasic, or its forum, or it's creator's treatment of its customers... I never said such a thing or even implied it. No one is that crazy. The point was that hearing peoples experiences with other Basics might help someone see that PureBasic was the better choice. And I stated that in the first sentence of my post as shown above.

[Demivec]

Ironically you guys being so hostile to Mike for posting here (now in the Off Topic where it should be) are directly opposite of the idea of a helpful open forum that helped sell me on PureBasic. And my point was not that posting here would change PowerBasic, or its forum, or it's creator's treatment of its customers... I never said such a thing or even implied it. No one is that crazy. The point was that hearing peoples experiences with other Basics might help someone see that PureBasic was the better choice. And I stated that in the first sentence of my post as shown above.

I sense you have a lot of hostilities of your own to deal with. I wish you well with them.

Apparently you posted a response while I was adding a final point I left out on my former message, I'll repeat it here so that it isn't missed.

A newbie trying to decide on the worthy qualities of a programming language won't find much to help them decide with what's been presented. They only know how bad some other forum is. The 'whole picture' about which this thread was started never appeared, just complaints. Nothing was mentioned about what makes any kind of support good. It was only mentioned how bad it was somewhere else.

[ConsoleMan]

Sorry, but hearing others opinions on a product or its forums... good or bad, does make a difference to me when I am trying to decide. One persons opinion... not so much. But when there are as many as I have seen here in older posts, it gives a reason to pause and reconsider. The question is whether Fred will allow such posts here in the Off Topic forum, and I can completely understand if he would rather not... especially if they turn into just one big bash session. I personally am not here to bash PowerBasic or any product (and don't support doing so just for venting), but I do hope that stating real issues would be allowed because most of us use a lot of tools besides PureBasic. And hearing a PureBasic user's opinion/experience with something I am possibly considering purchasing carries a little more weight.

And I see you completely skirted the fact that your initial reply to my post made absolutely no sense in relation to what you quoted of my post. That is my only point of contention with your post... posting a reply without reading what your are replying to. And to that end, please read the original post by Mike... (it and the title) was a carry over/reply to a post from another forum. Hence you should not be expecting to see the 'whole picture' here. Not that I think that posting in such a manner is a very good idea. But reading the post you're quoting before replying is [a very good idea in case I'm losing you again].

[Rings]

ugh, boring to read.......

[Fred]

ugh, boring to read.......

Can't agree more... It was to be expected due to the original topic. Locked.