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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:17 pm 
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c4s wrote:
That's not true. I might be wrong in some degree but as far as I know Fred and Freak are not really involved in that. There are at least two forum members who take care of the 3D part.
Then what did do Fred and freak, between versions 4.61 and 5.00? Fact in version 5.00 almost all the updates are related to 3D.

In PB not many basic things, such as unsigned variables, OOP, etc. Why did his do even more waning, removing ASCII. This degradation pathway!

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Fred wrote:
There is absolutely no plan to drop the 3D engine which is an intregral part of PB, so this whole discussion is moot.
Thank you for the statement of clarification.
I plan to use the 3D components in most future projects.
I find the discussion illuminating (from the perspective of the peanut gallery).

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:13 pm 
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User_Russian wrote:
c4s wrote:
That's not true. I might be wrong in some degree but as far as I know Fred and Freak are not really involved in that. There are at least two forum members who take care of the 3D part.
Then what did do Fred and freak, between versions 4.61 and 5.00? Fact in version 5.00 almost all the updates are related to 3D.

In PB not many basic things, such as unsigned variables, OOP, etc. Why did his do even more waning, removing ASCII. This degradation pathway!


This is a very conservative way of thinking. Nowadays society is all about representation and inclusion. So "the majority gets to decide for everyone" is a concept of 20th century and should generally be avoided. Instead, where possible, we need to cater for all groups within the greater society. This example translates directly to PB, if Fantaisie has made the decision to keep Ogre we should respect that. There are people who actively use or plan to use the 3d command set. I have used Ogre to create non gaming software (to render Google Street View panoramas). Besides, as far as I understand, Comtois is the man behind majority of Ogre wrapping. And don't get me started on this whole OOP thing... tons of other objective oriented languages out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Fred wrote:
There is absolutely no plan to drop the 3D engine which is an intregral part of PB, so this whole discussion is moot.

The fact is that ASCII also was all the time a inherent part of PureBasic, so absolutely nothing is certain in PureBasic future.

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:39 pm 
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freak wrote:
No changes will be made to the language or data types (The .c, .a and .u as well as the pseudo-types and library commands will remain as they are). The only difference is that the "compile in unicode mode" switch in the compiler will be permanently set to "on".

Code:
;FROM C
;typedef struct myStruc{
;  int  mac_enabled;
;  char mac_address[4][12];
;}myStruc;
;TO PB v5.3 ascii
Structure myStruc
  mac_enabled.l
  mac_address.s{12}[4];<-- With Unicode only compiles, do I lose this easy C translation?
                      ;<-- Or are fixed len strings still 1 byte per char?
endStructure
;TO PB v5.4 unicode
Structure myStruc
  mac_enabled.l
  mac_address.a[12*4];<-- Now I have to build my own parser for each string :(
endStructure

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:10 pm 
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@skywalk:
Wouldn't it be better to introduce a new structure, because PB does not support multi-dimensional static arrays ( [4][12] or [4,12] )?
Code:
Structure mac_address_field
    _data.a[12]
EndStructure
   
Structure myStruc
  mac_enabled.l
  mac_address.mac_address_field[4]
EndStructure


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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Yes, a nested structure can help, but you can see we are losing a datatype and creating more work.
I wrote a c to pb header converter and doing this type of nesting is rather complex.
That is why I collapsed [4][12] to [4*12].
But now I also have to change the datatype and add code to manipulate these type of 1 byte char fields.
Arggg, double arggg. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:40 am 
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Hi folks, I guess the most people here, who use PB are not employees at Disney, Electronic Arts or whats ever.
Most projects are one man shows and lacks skills of designers, graphic artists, etc..

It is the great PureBasic programming language, that we can create impressive programs very easy.

Therefore I do not expect that someone creates a famous game here in competition to big teams with many contributors.
PB is developed fantastic and I am very happy, that I've decided to use this programming language years ago.
I must admit, that I have never done anything with Unicode and I use many Libs (including by Gnozal), they only run with Ascii
and also no longer be developed, however.
For me it's a big hassle to upgrade to Unicode, but most importantly to me is, that PB will continue developed and the language runs as stable as possible. So if it has many advantages for the team, then do it.

Just my two pence.

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:50 am 
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just a note
https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals
|_ https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/utf-8

Full UTF-8 support in all packages (support input and display in UTF-8 by default(*), the delivery of ALL(*) text files in UTF-8, delivery packages ONLY(*) files with names in UTF-8).

(*)my selection

p.s. Thus, let's completely eradicate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojibake :) however, the trend

p.p.s(2014.08.22) looked announcement wxwidget 3.0 and surprisingly it on jump 2.x -> 3.x for full disclaimer ascii in favor of unicode

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Last edited by useful on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:20 pm 
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Well, time to switch to unicode. Didnt used it much befor, but i dont see any hard problems.

The only reason to use ASCII today is if you have to interact with legacy applications or systems, in which case you can use a legacy PB compiler without problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Hi Fred/Freak

According to the help file the AES cipher commands need the compiler to be in ascii mode, will those commands be updated to work in a unicode executable?
Those commands (or at least some form of encrypt/decrypt commands that are also supported by PHP) are quite important for something I've just started to work on.


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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:23 pm 
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the.weavster wrote:
Hi Fred/Freak

According to the help file the AES cipher commands need the compiler to be in ascii mode, will those commands be updated to work in a unicode executable?
Those commands (or at least some form of encrypt/decrypt commands that are also supported by PHP) are quite important for something I've just started to work on.


It just says that on the example because it it uses Len(x) to allocate the memory for the ciphered string (which will be too short to fit the unicode string). We just need to fix the examples to work in unicode, that's all.

The AES commands themselves are not affected by the unicode switch.

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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:16 pm 
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freak wrote:
It just says that on the example because it it uses Len(x) to allocate the memory for the ciphered string
:oops: :lol:

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Support for Ascii compilation ends after the next LTS cy
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:57 am 
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Rescator wrote:
Don't people realize that an ascii string can be stored in a unicode string? *shakes head*

RealBasic has two simple functions that make this very easy, PB equivalents might look like this:
Code:
InternalString$ = DefineEncoding(IncomingData$,#PB_UTF8)  ; for data being read into the program
DataToExport$ = ConvertEncoding(InternalString$,#PB_UTF8) ; to output data in the correct format
I'm assuming from what you've said this should also be achievable in PB.

It's been a very long time since I've used PB (it's really SpiderBasic that's got me interested again), last night I was trying to figure out how you'd achieve the above and to be honest I'm still not sure. I've also read both threads about Fantaisie dropping support for ascii compilation and there's been talk of Buffers, Peeking, Poking, Pointing and pseudo-types... it all sounds horribly complicated compared to the two commands I'm used to.

Are strings in SpiderBasic UTF8? If there's going to be an inconsistency between the strings in PB and SB it would be even more helpful if the commands for handling encodings were as simple as possible.


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