Nice Approach To Pirating

[MachineCode]

One-dollar Android apps are pirated left and right

That is so true! A low price does NOT stop piracy. I have a new iPhone and even I have seen cracked versions of $0.99 apps for download! Thus, price makes no difference to reducing piracy. At all. End of story.

[IdeasVacuum]

So far copy protection has only ever harmed law abiding consumers, and done absolutely nothing to stop copyright infringement and the people behind it.

That is true. I think that action came about because when the authorities ignored the situation, those companies felt justice was denied them and so they followed the path that they thought would work for them -instead of lobbying those authorities, which would have eventually worked but takes a very long period of time. Those companies are led by marketing people who didn't understand that what they were trying to do would fail in many ways. Their developer teams are guilty too because they never put their case, they just collected their pay for developing the 'self defense systems' when they knew full well that if one dev can make it, another can break it. The Achilles heal of development teams (and teams of other disciplines in other types of industry) is that though they may be willing to work very hard doing the things they love to do, they are too lazy to deal with the other things that they should do, office politics included unfortunately.

Yet that is the big corporates, the DVD, Games and OS producers, the Sonys, the Microsofts and the Electronic Arts of this world.

The real victims are not the inconvenienced customers who buy from these companies - those consumers remain gullible, get carried away by all the advertising hyp and the majority of them always will be.

The real victims in all this are today's small Indy developers.

[case]

One-dollar Android apps are pirated left and right

That is so true! A low price does NOT stop piracy. I have a new iPhone and even I have seen cracked versions of $0.99 apps for download! Thus, price makes no difference to reducing piracy. At all. End of story.

this is an easy shortcut.

maybe one hundred persons had illegaly downloaded the .99 app and 3 hundred have bought it.
and if the price tag where higher maybe 3 hundred may have downloded it and only 1 hundred may have buy it.

you can't tell that the price is not an argument. for some person that will NEVER pay for software any price is too high.
but some people may just buy the app without ever thinking of a pirated version pecause of the low price tag.

in fact you'll never stop piracy at all whatever you do. you can just be as good as you can for the paying customers.

don't sell overpriced software, don't make the software unusable because of copy protection, don't think of "piracy missing sales" just focuse on making your leggit customers happy.

i don't buy anymore games from ubi because of the alway connected drm style protection.

look at cd projekt and the witcher 2 this is how gaming industry have to work.

NO DRM, good content, free dclc... they don't complaint about piracy the game is selling good, some people pirated it, but in fact they make a lot of money out of the game so they don't really mind.

[IdeasVacuum]

In fact you'll never stop piracy at all whatever you do. you can just be as good as you can for the paying customers.

I agree 100% about what the Indy Dev can do, but that does not mean an effort to stop theft should not be made by the authorities. I bundle the people who crack software and the people who buy it together. You should not use illegally obtained goods just because the Mafia has made them easily available to you. If you scale that crime up, then you make very serious things 'ok' because you 'didn't start it' - but wait - you did start it! Supply and demand - if people rejected stolen goods, the Mafia would not have that market.

If it's alright for you to steal my software, is it alright for me to steal your PC? Nope.

I think the first man to go to Mars should be one of the crackers - one less to inflict harm on the rest of us

[Zach]

I would argue that thanks to platforms like Steam, the Indy Developer has a massive potential to thrive and succeed.

I know almost nothing about the Indy world, and probably won't until I finally enter it myself, one day when pigs fly.. But Steam has opened the door and given a lot of exposure to them, and Steam has millions upon millions of users.

In my opinion, things can only get better for Indy developers, and yes there just may be some casualties along the way, for various reasons. But I don't ever see Indy development going away. Now is a great time for independent software, and if those developers fail to capitalize on new platforms and outlets for sales and publicity, I think they only have themselves to blame.

Piracy is definitely a complex socioeconomic issue. I know for a fact I would not own all the games I do, and slowly be replacing my "pirated" library, if I did not have affordable access through Steam.
And for what its worth, I don't think I've ever pirated an Indy title - and I don't think I ever will. A tad hypocritical maybe, but at least with a small developer, I know WHO I am dealing with, and that they do or do not value my input as a gamer, just by talking to them.

I now own lots of Indy games, thanks to Steam.

[SFSxOI]

Piracy is not a "complex socioeconomic issue", its a theft issue plain and simple. The reason its not been dealt with is because governments want to handle it as though its a "complex socioeconomic issue" and all the "experts" have chimed in and want it to be a "complex socioeconomic issue" so they can continue to get press about their thoughts on it and write books and consult, and politicians want to extend the amount of time they can get kickbacks or support for their own political agendas from big content and introduce bills making it look like they are doing something when all they really wanted to do was put up a bill so they could attach something they really want to it later or use it for leverage to get something they want from the other side. Big content wants it to be a "complex socioeconomic issue" so they can continue to do basically what they want and claim what they want as they proceed towards dominating everything to do with any form of entertainment and have something to blame their losses on due to bad business models and greed. In the link we have one single indie developer who treated it like what it really is and was able to determine the level of piracy affecting his software, yet the government and big content can't even give accurate or true figures for what they claim piracy costs and its because they try to treat it as something it isn't and thats a "complex socioeconomic issue".

If you take something that does not legitimately belong to you its theft. If you circumvent a protection so you can take something that does not belong to you its theft. If you take something without paying for it its theft. Its not a "complex socioeconomic issue".

Personally, I could give a rats ass about piracy really but for cripes sake everyone needs to stop wasting their time trying to deal with something that it not there and that is a "complex socioeconomic issue". It is theft plain and simple, if the government and big content and everyone else wants to deal with it then they need to deal with it for what it actually is and not for what they want it to be. I'm getting tired of costs of software, games, entertainment media, and the like increasing, and having to jump through hoops just to use something I purchased, and it being blamed on piracy because its a "complex socioeconomic issue" when in reality these company's just wanted justification to increase prices so they make it a "complex socioeconomic issue" excuse and instead don't deal with the issue for the theft that it really is.

[MachineCode]

its a theft issue plain and simple

Yep, people need to understand that, but they don't. They keep excusing it. If someone is using a pirated app, then they've stolen it and cost the author a sale. There is no way anyone can argue around that... but people try. Take PureBasic. If someone here is using a pirated copy, they can't tell me with a straight face that they haven't cost Fred a sale. Everybody knows they have.

[Zach]

If you want to approach piracy from "its theft plain and simple", then that's your right. But one has to wonder why you'd bother commenting on the thread in the first place if that is all you view it as. There are plenty of reasons people pirate, but the vast majority of people who do it are not the hard-core "because I'm a thief and I want it free, I'll take what I want" crackers who do it for their own reasons, notoriety, etc.

They do it for a multitude of reasons. None of those reasons is any less valid a discussion topic than the others.

Simply calling it theft and not attempting to delve into WHY people are pirating does nothing to fix it, and is a glossed over simplification of the problem. Exactly how would you classify a problem that has social and economic ramifications if NOT as a "socioeconomic" issue? Or did you just see a big word and revert to attack mode?

I'm sick of jumping through hoops and paying for high priced software just as much as you are; But I'm also just as sick of people who think saying anything other than "its theft plain and simple, throw them all in jail" is some kind of useless endeavor; giving the impression that attempting to explore the issue equates in some way to justification or useless drivel for the sake of hearing ourselves speak. This isn't a news channel, we aren't "experts" looking for attention, we're consumers trying to discuss an interesting problem in the software industry.

Hard drugs are illegal too. They ruin communities, cause lots of violence and death, and span all ranges of the economic and social ladder.
Drugs are bad "Plain and simple", and where has our "War on Drugs" in the USA gotten us? Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. Just like Prohibition... Because people continue to beat the drum that anyone saying anything other than "throw them all in jail, shoot them, I don't care", is somehow "not caring" or "trying to justify drug use" or (insert other problem).

If you don't openly discuss a problem I don't know how you think you'll ever solve it, if you can't even identify at least one of the root causes. The whole corrupt Corporations, Government, Media, Politics schpeel is tired and overused. Problems go deeper than this, and are almost NEVER that simple.

[SFSxOI]

If you want to approach piracy from "its theft plain and simple", then that's your right. But one has to wonder why you'd bother commenting on the thread in the first place if that is all you view it as. There are plenty of reasons people pirate, but the vast majority of people who do it are not the hard-core "because I'm a thief and I want it free, I'll take what I want" crackers who do it for their own reasons, notoriety, etc.

They do it for a multitude of reasons. None of those reasons is any less valid a discussion topic than the others.

Simply calling it theft and not attempting to delve into WHY people are pirating does nothing to fix it, and is a glossed over simplification of the problem. Exactly how would you classify a problem that has social and economic ramifications if NOT as a "socioeconomic" issue? Or did you just see a big word and revert to attack mode?

I'm sick of jumping through hoops and paying for high priced software just as much as you are; But I'm also just as sick of people who think saying anything other than "its theft plain and simple, throw them all in jail" is some kind of useless endeavor; giving the impression that attempting to explore the issue equates in some way to justification or useless drivel for the sake of hearing ourselves speak. This isn't a news channel, we aren't "experts" looking for attention, we're consumers trying to discuss an interesting problem in the software industry.

Hard drugs are illegal too. They ruin communities, cause lots of violence and death, and span all ranges of the economic and social ladder.
Drugs are bad "Plain and simple", and where has our "War on Drugs" in the USA gotten us? Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. Just like Prohibition... Because people continue to beat the drum that anyone saying anything other than "throw them all in jail, shoot them, I don't care", is somehow "not caring" or "trying to justify drug use" or (insert other problem).

If you don't openly discuss a problem I don't know how you think you'll ever solve it, if you can't even identify at least one of the root causes. The whole corrupt Corporations, Government, Media, Politics schpeel is tired and overused. Problems go deeper than this, and are almost NEVER that simple.

People who rob banks are bank robbers, people who sell illegal drugs are drug dealers, people who take things that do not belong to them are thieves. Thats it, and it does not take a rocket scientists to figure that out. There may be a multitude of reasons they do it, but it still does not change the fact they did it or do it and the reasons they do it are of little consequence to the victims. I'm not lumping software pirates in with bank robbers and drug dealers, just pointing out that regardless of what the reasons are the fact is they comitted the offense and the reasons don't excuse it. There is not some big mystery to it. If I come into your house and take something without permission regardless of the reason why I took it the effect is still the same, something of yours was taken from you. If I walk into your shop and shoplift, regardless of the reason i did it the effect is still the same because you are less inventory that you sell to make a living. If you sell software that you created on the internet and I take it and use it without paying or permission it does not matter what the reason is that I did it as the effect is still the same by diluting your income and directly affecting you and your livelyhood. Regardless of the reason for doing it, there is a victim that suffers a loss in some way. So as intelligently nobel as it may sound to say there are many reasons and wanting to discuss it, it does not matter a bit what the reasons are because there is always a victim somewhere that suffers some loss as a result and no amount of talk or discussion or examination or public forum is ever going to remove the fact that a victim exists or remove the fact that it wasn't the pirates property in the first place. This presumption of entitlement simply because someone can do something to steal something from someone else is wrong, it does not deserve to be excused or justified. Sure, maybe they do have some reason for doing it, it still does not entitle them and still does not excuse the fact they victimized someone in doing so.

Granted, the truth is the piracy figures are not as large as what big content and anti-piracy groups claim and they do have a tendancy to greatly over inflate their claims of the effects of piracy and the costs associated with it, however, it is very wide spread. I work in an area where we profile and investigate just about everything cyber, from attacks on networks, to malware, to bot nets and the software and command and control used, to spam distribution networks, to trojans, to viruses, to operating system weaknesses, to pirated software and movie and music distribution networks. I can tell you for a fact that piracy is theft, I don't need some argument or internet forum to tell me that it needs to be examined and discussed and rationalized or categorized. I've seen the proof myself. It does not matter why someone did it, the effect is still the same regardless of the reason they did it. It is theft and those that do it are thieves plain and simple.

It does not matter if one is a hard core pirate or not, its still theft. Saying that its not theft because one wants to not be called a hard core pirate, or does not do it all the time, is like saying a bank robber wasn't robbing a bank while they were loading up the cash from the bank vault because he/she wasn't a hard core bank robber.

Why does one need to wonder why I would post in the thread? Its a discussion forum, i'm as free to post here as anyone else is and I have no need or requirement to justify anything to you. Thats all my view is because thats what piracy is, theft. I'm not going to seek your level of naivety in responding to your very transparent attempt to subject my reasoning and posting to your need for justification. If one pirates the software, music, movie works of others then they are a thief, but if it makes one feel better about their self to try to justifiy doing such by use of calling it something then what it really is and trying to explain it away in some manner then they are only being disengenous with their self and others.

(Note: There are cases of accidental pirating, for example; A person downloaded content from a site that claimed to have licensed the works for distribution but they really didn't and the works were pirated, or the works were presented in what seemed like a genuine legitimate manner from a seemingly genuine vendor which was really fronting for a pirating group intending to fool the public, yes they exist. Thats not what I mean here, I mean people who intentionally seek it out and do it.)

[GWarner]

...challenge, of course (even if I can't see what is really pleasant in this activity)...

I can. Back in the early '80s when I had an Apple //, I came to know the hardware and 6502 assembly language so well that there wasn't a single program I couldn't break in to. Of course back then we didn't have program protectors like SecuROM or Armadillo, the primary form of DRM back then was to put the data on the disk in a non-standard format so that standard disk copying tools couldn't read them. It was always a rush when I succeeded in defeating a program's protections, similar to the rush you get when you finish a writing a program and can sit back and watch the computer do what you told it to do.

I never gained any notoriety for my cracking skills, other than what I got for showing off that I had done it, but that was just to promote my computer and programming skills, I never shared the results, because, besides the challenge, the only real reason for doing it in the first place was so I could make backups of software I purchased.

...and... gaining credits and full access to tons of warez. Even if the app is not well known.

I had to learn that lesson for myself. Up until about 2000 most of the programs I had were pirated, but I started feeling bad about what I was doing and decided to correct it. Over the next year, those program I decided I wanted to keep using, I paid for, the programs I couldn't justify the cost for I first exported any daya I entered that I wanted to keep, then uninstalled and deleted everything related to program. When it was all over and every program I now had and used was properly paid for and licensed, I felt a whole lot better about myself and enjoyed "playing" with my computer a lot more as well.

Lesson learned: Piracy is simply not worth it, period.

[Zach]

Why does one need to wonder why I would post in the thread? Its a discussion forum, i'm as free to post here as anyone else is and I have no need or requirement to justify anything to you. Thats all my view is because thats what piracy is, theft. I'm not going to seek your level of naivety in responding to your very transparent attempt to subject my reasoning and posting to your need for justification. If one pirates the software, music, movie works of others then they are a thief, but if it makes one feel better about their self to try to justifiy doing such by use of calling it something then what it really is and trying to explain it away in some manner then they are only being disengenous with their self and others.

You kind of just proved my point. It doesn't seem like you really wished to contribute anything of substance to this discussion, other than to accuse people of glossing over the issue to justify their own actions.

Nobody here disagrees it is theft, and nobody here has tried to legitimize what they might be doing. We are discussing the how's and why's, and perhaps come up with ideas to take away for our own use with our software. Your inability to see that and write people off as sympathizing self-justification doesn't server any purpose except, perhaps, to make yourself feel better about having some moral "high-ground" or whatever you want to call it. Ironically it was quite an interesting and informative topic until now.

[MachineCode]

If you want to approach piracy from "its theft plain and simple", then that's your right.

It's not my right. It's a fact. That people can even think of piracy as anything other than theft astounds me. They're using something that they haven't paid for. There's no way that can be justified, either legally or morally. If you're meant to pay, then pay. Simple.

[SFSxOI]

Why does one need to wonder why I would post in the thread? Its a discussion forum, i'm as free to post here as anyone else is and I have no need or requirement to justify anything to you. Thats all my view is because thats what piracy is, theft. I'm not going to seek your level of naivety in responding to your very transparent attempt to subject my reasoning and posting to your need for justification. If one pirates the software, music, movie works of others then they are a thief, but if it makes one feel better about their self to try to justifiy doing such by use of calling it something then what it really is and trying to explain it away in some manner then they are only being disengenous with their self and others.

You kind of just proved my point. It doesn't seem like you really wished to contribute anything of substance to this discussion, other than to accuse people of glossing over the issue to justify their own actions.

Nobody here disagrees it is theft, and nobody here has tried to legitimize what they might be doing. We are discussing the how's and why's, and perhaps come up with ideas to take away for our own use with our software. Your inability to see that and write people off as sympathizing self-justification doesn't server any purpose except, perhaps, to make yourself feel better about having some moral "high-ground" or whatever you want to call it. Ironically it was quite an interesting and informative topic until now.

I never accused anyone, I said it plainly, I simply pointed out it is not a "socioeconomic" issue in my original post and that it was theft and those that do it are thieves, then you accused me of having some type of alterior motive or something for posting. Then now you go on to accuse me further.

I don't give a flying fart if you like me posting or not, I'm free to post here if I wish, what I posted was in line with the topic trend of discussion of piracy that you started because you are the one that bought up there were "reasons" for it and it being a "socioeconomic issue", so its you who expanded this into a discussion about reasons and your flippant justifications, now that someone comes along and calls it what it really is you get upset and start crying about it.

I would argue that thanks to platforms like Steam, the Indy Developer has a massive potential to thrive and succeed.

I know almost nothing about the Indy world, and probably won't until I finally enter it myself, one day when pigs fly.. But Steam has opened the door and given a lot of exposure to them, and Steam has millions upon millions of users.

In my opinion, things can only get better for Indy developers, and yes there just may be some casualties along the way, for various reasons. But I don't ever see Indy development going away. Now is a great time for independent software, and if those developers fail to capitalize on new platforms and outlets for sales and publicity, I think they only have themselves to blame.

Piracy is definitely a complex socioeconomic issue. I know for a fact I would not own all the games I do, and slowly be replacing my "pirated" library, if I did not have affordable access through Steam.
And for what its worth, I don't think I've ever pirated an Indy title - and I don't think I ever will. A tad hypocritical maybe, but at least with a small developer, I know WHO I am dealing with, and that they do or do not value my input as a gamer, just by talking to them.

I now own lots of Indy games, thanks to Steam.

You were not discussing any "hows" and "whys" and seeking ideas. You were bragging on steam and how you were replacing your "pirated" library. You were stating unequivocally that piracy is a "complex socioeconomic issue" trying to equate yourself as a "victim" to those you victimized with your theft and then trying to make yourself feel good by saying "And for what its worth, I don't think I've ever pirated an Indy title - and I don't think I ever will." Hypocrisy at its greatest, not just a tad. First you say you stole works of others (from your own post > "replacing my "pirated" library") then try to make it OK though because its "a complex socioeconomic issue" and "I don't think I've ever pirated an Indy title - and I don't think I ever will". Your justification for you stealing the works of others is basically that you could not aford the software so that made it OK to steal the software, talk about a basic fundamental integrity flaw. What happens the next time you want some software and can't aford it, guess you will steal that software too because you are a victim of "a complex socioeconomic issue" and believe you are entitled to steal it because you can't aford the software? A post trying to justify intentional theft from others using the most basic of integrity flaws - self claimed entitlement based upon greed - the same integrity flaw exposed in criminals the world over, the self claimed entitlement to prey upon others or society to their disadvantage and adversly because you want it, how insulting and offensive. Then you dare accuse me for simply pointing out the cold reality that piracy is theft and those that do it are theives?

Maybe you don't like it being pointed out that your own pirating of works of others is theft and you were/are a thief, maybe your feeling a little guilty and sensitive about it when such acts are referenced in the cold light of what they really are and discussed in those terms, I don't know and do not profess to be able to read your mind. However, its very disingenuous, genuinely hypocritical, and offensive and insulting, of you to brag that you have stolen the works of others and then try to expand the subject trying to flippantly and insultantly equate it to a "socioeconomic" issue like your the victim, then to justify your own theft.

If you don't like what I post then too bad. If you don't like such a subject being highlighted in reference to you then don't brag about stealing the property of others and then try to minimize it by passing it off as "a complex socioeconomic issue" when it isn't, your only further offending and insulting others, especially then ones you stole the works from, by trying to justify your actions. So complain away and attack my posts all you'd like, but the cold harsh fact is that piracy is theft and those that do it are thieves and not some "complex socioeconomic issue" casulty or victim that you want to portray them as.

[jack]

@SFSxOI
well and eloquently said, agree 100%

[Demivec]

@SFSxOI
well and eloquently said, agree 100%

@SFSxOI: Clear and to the point. I concur.